How Do We Solve a Problem Like Obesity?

[Bairnardo]

Just now, The Moonster said:

My post was asking people who felt fat people were sound to be bullied if they felt under weight people were also fair game for bullying. You replied saying "it depends", which suggests to me you do find some forms of bullying acceptable.

"Harsh truths" do not equal ridiculing someone for their weight. Explaining to someone you know that you're concerned and would like to help is fine, laughing at them in the hope it forces them to change is not. 

Few folk begging for yet more authoritarianism because they don't like looking at fatties here....

[vikingTON]

51 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

If it wasn't a mental health issue, mocking my appearance would be fine?

I'm sure you realise where I'm going here. There is no problem in society that is solved or even assisted by bullying. 

What's your cut-off point for 'bullying' as opposed to entirely legitimate social stigma? Are smokers being 'bullied' if someone tells them that their habit makes them stink and ruins their health? Is cigarette packaging showing the outcomes of their choice out of order?

Given that over sixty fucking percent of the UK population is overweight or obese right now, I'm not going to lose any sleep worrying about anyone's hurt feelings on this particular issue. There self-evidently is not anywhere near the required level of social pressure to convince people that living an unhealthy lifestyle is objectively disgusting and so long as we make endless excuses for that, nothing will ever change.

Edited March 4, 2021 by vikingTON

[Jambomo]

33 minutes ago, Gaz said:

One of the problems is that weight loss on its own is an incredibly simple concept. Your body burns energy. If you eat less energy than your body needs, you lose weight. If you eat more energy than your body needs, you will gain weight.

That's it. That's all there is to it. But as you say it's massively overcomplicated whenever you try to look for a bit of information on it.

Well yes, but you could see how easy it would be if you were a viewer to think that ok, this trained professional is saying eat 800 Cals a day. I know I have to eat less energy than I put in so I'll try this. Yet its incredibly bad advice because its nowhere near enough for an adult, they'll end up starving and eating shite because they are grabbing the first thing or hating actual healthy eating because this is now what they think that is.

Its one thing to know what to do, another to correctly put that into practice. Should you cut out carbs for example? some say yes, others no. Eat lots of fats and protein? again some swear by lots of protein, advocate protein shakes as part of exercise because you need it for recovery, others say they don't do anything. Its baffling. 

[Jambomo]

20 minutes ago, Aufc said:

 

As already said, weight loss itself is very simple especially if obese. I was more meaning the ability to look up healthy recipes

 

Recently I cooked a healthy meal from a healthy eating website. I do a bit of batch cooking now so made the recipie which was for 4 portions. Followed the instructions and weighed out everything properly.

The meal was lovely but when I added it to MyFitnessPal (MFP) to count the calories, what they had said on the website was completely wrong, it was over 150 calories a portion more than they had said it would be. I cook a lot of recipes and follow the same process of adding them to MFP. Of course none are exact because you aren't using exactly the same produce/brands but usually they are within 30 -40 calories of what is quoted. This is way out to a big degree and even splitting it into an extra portion didn't get it near what was quoted. If you are relying on correct nutritional advice, then you still have to do a lot of work and check what you are using to make sure its accurate. There is no quality control online.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Jambomo

[TheScarf]

The fizzy drinks one always makes me laugh.  I probably drink 4 cans of Pepsi Max a week and have done for a while. I always make sure I don't drink one every day.  I always clean my teeth twice a day, have had one filling in my life, and I'm fairly lean.  I don't have a 6 pack, far from it.  but my stomach is fairly flat.

Do you know what I don't do 4 days a week?  Drink alcohol or eat takeaway, which are riddled with fat and thousands of calories.  Probably why I'm not obese, despite my love of zero calorie fizzy drinks.

[vikingTON]

14 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Few folk begging for yet more authoritarianism because they don't like looking at fatties here....

It's not 'authoritarian' for society itself to regulate compliance with acceptable norms of behaviour. Social pressure to wear face coverings right now for example is not the same as a legal obligation enforced by government. I doubt that removing that mandate would have much impact at all right now. 

What has changed in the past fifty years is that poor lifestyle choices that would have been called out within families or peer groups before the general public even got to chip in on the matter as 'bullying', are now glossed over as 'just being who you are' until people end up in ridiculous states of ill-health and immobility. Which in the case of an obesity epidemic is not the optimal course of action for either society as a whole nor the majority of overweight people themselves. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by vikingTON

[vikingTON]

2 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

The fizzy drinks one always makes me laugh.  I probably drink 4 cans of Pepsi Max a week and have done for a while. I always make sure I don't drink one every day.  I always clean my teeth twice a day, have had one filling in my life, and I'm fairly lean.  I don't have a 6 pack, far from it.  but my stomach is fairly flat.

Do you know what I don't do 4 days a week?  Drink alcohol or eat takeaway, which are riddled with fat and thousands of calories.  Probably why I'm not obese, despite my love of zero calorie fizzy drinks.

It's all about moderation. For example, a session at the pub can be mitigated by having spirits with diet rather than 'full-fat' mixers and then not stuffing your face with a kebab on the way home as well. If you overindulge one or two days then you need to restore balance with healthier choices and/or more exercise the rest of the week.

These basic concepts are not actually beyond the grasp of the vast majority of people: there are simply not enough social and economic incentives to actually deploy that attitude. 

[coprolite]

4 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

Well yes, but you could see how easy it would be if you were a viewer to think that ok, this trained professional is saying eat 800 Cals a day. I know I have to eat less energy than I put in so I'll try this. Yet its incredibly bad advice because its nowhere near enough for an adult, they'll end up starving and eating shite because they are grabbing the first thing or hating actual healthy eating because this is now what they think that is.

Its one thing to know what to do, another to correctly put that into practice. Should you cut out carbs for example? some say yes, others no. Eat lots of fats and protein? again some swear by lots of protein, advocate protein shakes as part of exercise because you need it for recovery, others say they don't do anything. Its baffling. 

As a general rule of thumb, if someone has a book or subscription to sell they should be ignored.  

5 minutes ago, virginton said:

What's your cut-off point for 'bullying' as opposed to entirely legitimate social stigma? Are smokers being 'bullied' if someone tells them that their habit makes them stink and ruins their health? 

Given that over sixty fucking percent of the UK population is overweight or obese, I'm not going to lose any sleep worrying about anyone's hurt feelings on this issue. There self-evidently is not the lev of social pressure required to convince people that living an unhealthy lifestyle is objectively disgusting and so long as we make endless excuses for that, nothing will ever change.

You should worry about hurting people's feelings.

Even if you have zero empathy or humanity (which i doubt) it can be counter productive. 

There can be complicated feedback mechanisms with lack of self esteem etc that lead people to despair and self destructive behaviour. Some people need their confidence built up so that they can be convinced that making a change is worth it and possible. 

[Gaz]

9 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

Recently I cooked a healthy meal from a healthy eating website. I do a bit of batch cooking now so made the recipie which was for 4 portions. Followed the instructions and weighed out everything properly.

The meal was lovely but when I added it to MyFitnessPal (MFP) to count the calories, what they had said on the website was completely wrong, it was over 150 calories a portion more than they had said it would be. I cook a lot of recipes and follow the same process of adding them to MFP. Of course none are exact because you aren't using exactly the same produce/brands but usually they are within 30 -40 calories of what is quoted. This is way out to a big degree and even splitting it into an extra portion didn't get it near what was quoted. If you are relying on correct nutritional advice, then you still have to do a lot of work and check what you are using to make sure its accurate. There is no quality control online.

The database on MFP is uploaded by well- or not-so-well-meaning amateurs who have no idea about portion size.

[Jambomo]

Just now, Gaz said:

The database on MFP is uploaded by well- or not-so-well-meaning amateurs who have no idea about portion size.

I added the individual ingredients myself and checked with the labels on what I was using, always do. 

[The Moonster]

22 minutes ago, virginton said:

What's your cut-off point for 'bullying' as opposed to entirely legitimate social stigma? Are smokers being 'bullied' if someone tells them that their habit makes them stink and ruins their health? Is cigarette packaging showing the outcomes of their choice out of order?

Given that over sixty fucking percent of the UK population is overweight or obese right now, I'm not going to lose any sleep worrying about anyone's hurt feelings on this particular issue. There self-evidently is not anywhere near the required level of social pressure to convince people that living an unhealthy lifestyle is objectively disgusting and so long as we make endless excuses for that, nothing will ever change.

No, telling a smoker that smoking smells and damages their health are factual things. I'd be all for similar warnings on unhealthy food packaging. That's clearly not what we're talking about here though, some of the chat on the Covid thread about this is just down right nasty abuse that I suspect people enjoy throwing about as it makes them feel better about themselves, not because they feel they're doing societal stigma a service. 

Again, having an understanding of why someone is a situation does not equal making excuses for them to continue down that path. 

[vikingTON]

16 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

No, telling a smoker that smoking smells and damages their health are factual things.

 

Plenty of things that are regarded as 'bullying' can also be regarded as pointing out 'factual things', so where exactly is the line being drawn between the two? 

Quote

Again, having an understanding of why someone is a situation does not equal making excuses for them to continue down that path. 

That a comfortable majority of the UK is in the 'situation' of being an unhealthy weight demonstrates that our societal balance is clearly misguided and has gone down the excuses path and should be corrected though. Pointing out blunt truths is an essential part of that process of correction.

Edited March 4, 2021 by vikingTON

[Turkmenbashi]

33 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

The fizzy drinks one always makes me laugh.  I probably drink 4 cans of Pepsi Max a week and have done for a while. I always make sure I don't drink one every day.  I always clean my teeth twice a day, have had one filling in my life, and I'm fairly lean.  I don't have a 6 pack, far from it.  but my stomach is fairly flat.

Do you know what I don't do 4 days a week?  Drink alcohol or eat takeaway, which are riddled with fat and thousands of calories.  Probably why I'm not obese, despite my love of zero calorie fizzy drinks.

For me stopping drinking a can of full fat Irn-bru a day was enough for me to loose enough weight that was no longer overweight. And the rest of my diet is hardly healthy.

[ICTChris]

For the people talking about Japan, this guy lives in Japan and produces videos on nutirition and health.  Here's one of his uploads about why it's easier to eat healthily in Japan, interesting.

 

 

[vikingTON]

33 minutes ago, coprolite said:

As a general rule of thumb, if someone has a book or subscription to sell they should be ignored.  

You should worry about hurting people's feelings.

Even if you have zero empathy or humanity (which i doubt) it can be counter productive. 

There can be complicated feedback mechanisms with lack of self esteem etc that lead people to despair and self destructive behaviour. Some people need their confidence built up so that they can be convinced that making a change is worth it and possible. 

And other people need a boot up the arse and the reality of their piss-poor choices set out for them in black and white. Given that our touchy no judgment approach in recent years has done absolutely nothing to combat an escalating obesity epidemic - but made plenty of people feel nice about themselves, before keeling over at 50 - which course should we now try instead? 

[The Moonster]

2 minutes ago, virginton said:

Plenty of things that are regarded as 'bullying' can also be regarded as pointing out 'factual things', so where exactly is the line being drawn between the two? 

That a comfortable majority of the UK is in the 'situation' of being an unhealthy weight demonstrates that our societal balance is clearly misguided and has gone down the excuses path and should be corrected though. Pointing out blunt truths is an essential part of that process of correction.

There's ways of approaching things. Telling your mate or even a stranger that you're concerned about their health is a perfectly reasonable way to discuss these sort of things. Calling people fat c***s on an online forum is bullying. Not sure why I need to draw that line tbh. 

"Blunt truths" don't have to be abusive, which a lot of the chat on here is. 

[ICTChris]

If you drink fizzy drinks and want to lose weight switching to sugar free or diet is an easy way to achieve this.  

I don't understand how some people drink such large quatities of fizzy drinks.  In the video I shared on here about obesity in Samoa the taxi driver drank two litres of fizzy drinks every day, I can barely finish a can of fizzy drinks, it's so bloating.

[vikingTON]

4 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

There's ways of approaching things. Telling your mate or even a stranger that you're concerned about their health is a perfectly reasonable way to discuss these sort of things. Calling people fat c***s on an online forum is bullying. Not sure why I need to draw that line tbh. 

"Blunt truths" don't have to be abusive, which a lot of the chat on here is. 

Well no, you claimed that it was acceptable to point out 'factual truths' to smokers, yet for some reason 'factual truths' about obesity must be danced around. Let's compare like for like: where is the line for 'bullying' of smokers and 'bullying' of fat people respectively? 

Given that nicotine addiction is a thing and doughnut addiction is not, if we were making a rational decision of which group we should more sensitive about, it would be smokers. The opposite however is the case in the UK today - which is why we have an ever-spiralling obesity epidemic while smoking rates are in decline. 

There's also little evidence of specific people being called 'fat c***s' on here, so even by your own terms there's no case for 'bullying' either. If people do not like a frank public discussion of this general issue then there are plenty of other threads, forums and indeed websites for them to read instead. 

[Dons_1988]

6 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

There's ways of approaching things. Telling your mate or even a stranger that you're concerned about their health is a perfectly reasonable way to discuss these sort of things. Calling people fat c***s on an online forum is bullying. Not sure why I need to draw that line tbh. 

"Blunt truths" don't have to be abusive, which a lot of the chat on here is. 

It also makes the predominantly wrong assumption that said overweight person isn't already aware that they've harmed themselves by being the weight they are. I'd guess most are perfectly aware that they need to lose weight. From my own experience of being fat, no one abused me about it more than I did to myself. And when I resolved it, it was because I freed myself of the self loathing, accepted the issue and tackled it practically.

I think for folk who are overweight, particularly if they're significantly overweight, the magnitude of the amount of weight they feel they need to lose is so great hat they just shy away from the problem. You almost need to forget the whole weight loss part and just focus on eating decent things in reasonable proportions and getting in some level of exercise. Do it one day, then the next, then the next and keep going.

The noise of being a burden on society or the abuse you can get can be a real distraction to what needs done. A few simple steps taken every day over a long period of time and people would see a significant difference.

[coprolite]

2 minutes ago, virginton said:

And other people need a boot up the arse and the reality of their piss-poor choices set out for them in black and white. Given that our touchy no judgment approach in recent years has done absolutely nothing to combat an escalating obesity epidemic - but made plenty of people feel nice about themselves, before keeling over at 50 - which course should we now try instead? 

Totally agree that some people just need a boot up the arse.

But what works for them might not work for others and might actually be harmful. 

I don't really recognise the reality that you're describing. Fat people are routinely made to feel shit about being fat and that hasn't helped either