Sarah Everard

[Busta Nut]

They were searching away in Kent. pretty far away.

 

5 minutes ago, 101 said:

I think you're conflating two cases the one in London looks to be fairly straightforward the one in Dundee is meant to be grim as f**k, although not seen any rumours about it.

Ah right! ok.

[Fratelli]

1 minute ago, Busta Nut said:

They were searching away in Kent. pretty far away.

 

Ah right! ok.

Aye, he lives out there, 60 miles from where she was last seen. Although i think it has turned out to be a different wooded area than the one they were looking through yesterday.

[Priti priti priti Patel]

1 hour ago, Mark Connolly said:

Have you never watched Line of Duty?

Irrelevant now but no I haven't.

[Mark Connolly]

13 minutes ago, Margaret Thatcher said:

Irrelevant now but no I haven't.

H is a senior police officer who is heavily involved in organised crime. They've been looking for him/her since 2012, and still not found who it is.

The hunt continues - next Sunday, 21st March, BBC1 9pm*

 

*Probably

[Donathan]

1 hour ago, 101 said:

Its a really sad case have to think London really needs to look at it's policing seems to be murder on the streets of the city everyday. Got to think that if it was the polis who did it got caught after a few days either he's not the brightest button in the box or the investigating officers are different class.

 

Most of the London murders are gang on gang violence, turf wars between rival drug dealers etc. Obviously it shouldn't be happening, but they are very much confined to the "wrong crowds".

 

What really hits home about this particular case is that the victim is a very normal woman just walking home from visiting her pal.

[GiGi]

1 hour ago, djchapsticks said:

Another time outside my own house when I was about 14 or 15, a late summer night as it was starting to get dark and I was just standing talking to 3 mates. A junkie (who was known to us) staggered past us and without saying anything produced a fucking huge machete from his joggies and started after us....we scarpered in 4 directions and it was me he decided to focus on. I bolted in the house with this c**t in pursuit. My old man heard the commotion of me holding the close door shut and asked WTF was going on as, panicking, I told him that said junkie had just came after us with a big fuckoff blade. Without a word, he produced a shinty stick that was always kept behind the door and I could see the red mist went down. Even though the banging at the close door had now stopped and the arsehole was about 30-40 yards walking up the road, my old man decided he wasn't having a bit of it and decided to go out and I was sure he was going to get knifed.

Nah, he got within 6 feet of him, shouted his name and as he was on the turn and ready to go back towards his joggies for the blade, the sound of a sickening 'THWACK' rung out as my old man caught him flush on the temple with the flat side of the wooden shinty stick and the fucker crumpled... like actually folded down on himself. My dad fired a few angered boots into the sparked bampot's ribs for good measure and stoated back in the house. I breathed a sigh of relief when he got up after a few minutes but the effect of getting chased a second time for no reason left me a bit of a nervous wreck. The junkie came from a pretty notorious family in the area and it seems that he never had any memory of the event (a shinty stick to the temple does have amnesiac properties I'd imagine) as there were never any retaliations or further incidents.

and the whole street came out and applauded

[Black Pennel]

1 hour ago, 101 said:

Its a really sad case have to think London really needs to look at it's policing seems to be murder on the streets of the city everyday. Got to think that if it was the polis who did it got caught after a few days either he's not the brightest button in the box or the investigating officers are different class.

Or, perhaps he turned himself in ?...

[djchapsticks]

14 minutes ago, GiGi said:

and the whole street came out and applauded

 

[Priti priti priti Patel]

28 minutes ago, Donathan said:

 

Most of the London murders are gang on gang violence, turf wars between rival drug dealers etc. Obviously it shouldn't be happening, but they are very much confined to the "wrong crowds".

 

What really hits home about this particular case is that the victim is a very normal woman just walking home from visiting her pal.

I don't know if that's true actually or just a representation of the phenomenon being discussed. As I posted above, I looked at the stats for 2019, there were 140 homicides, only 40 related to gangs.  In the part of London where I live, there's a lovely park that's v safe at night, and further down the road by Aldi there's a park the locals call "Murder Park" because people are always being murdered there. Four in the last couple years or so. I don't think any have been gang related. One of them was a 40 year old white guy who just got blasted with a shotgun as he walked home from the pub. No known (or publicly disclosed) motive. No-one charged in any of the murders. All victims male.

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

Should you be visiting pals during lockdown what does wee Nippy have to say?

[ICTChris]

4 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

There's an ongoing case in Dundee right now that I'm surprised not hit the national media yet.

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/troon-avenue-man-accused-of-double-murder-including-alleged-hammer-attack/

They've been digging up the floorboards and apparently garden as well hunting for the bodies.

Sorry for taking the thread off-beat but it's just madness.

I saw that, the story seemed to break when people were charged, which limits what can be reported about the case. With the Everard case she was missing first, which means it can be extensively reported.

[GordonS]

5 hours ago, Margaret Thatcher said:

On the point about women walking alone. My girlfriend mentioned this to me as well. I had a quick look at statistics for homicides in the UK. About 70% of homicide victims are male. I'm sure a vast majority of homicides involving sexual offending are female, and there will be a bias towards male victims of homicide generally if women are avoiding being out at night etc. But I wonder if it is definitely super dangerous for women to be out at night or if it's just perception.

There's no way to know, of course.

Ask any women about all the ways they alter their lives to reduce their risks of being attacked by a man. I've asked a few, and for them it's constant. Things I take for granted like going for a walk in the countryside on a sunny day, my wife won't do that alone. It's utterly ridiculous that half the country are still living like this in 2021.

I asked the women on our pals' WhatsApp group tonight if they were willing to share their stories and all of them had at least one. Stalking, groping, threatening behaviour, being corners by two men and forced into giving a phone number, getting followed. None of them have really bad stories, none have had abusive partners or been seriously sexually assaulted, though all but one know someone who's been raped. Men don't have much idea how much of this goes on because women talk to each other about it, not to us, and it's not like men talk to each other about the raping they've done.

I've looked at the stats before and yeah, most women who are victims of murder are killed by someone they know. About half are killed by a current or ex partner. A woman is three times more likely to be killed in those circumstances than a man. I'm certain the main reason there aren't a lot more murders is because almost all women factor safety into their choices all the time. 

 

4 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

There's an ongoing case in Dundee right now that I'm surprised not hit the national media yet.

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/troon-avenue-man-accused-of-double-murder-including-alleged-hammer-attack/

They've been digging up the floorboards and apparently garden as well hunting for the bodies.

Sorry for taking the thread off-beat but it's just madness.

There's a UK media thing here, not intentional, just how it work. Folk in Scotland all know about the famous English murders - most people my age will know the name Suzy Lamplugh, for instance. But nobody in England has heard of Arlene Fraser. Few have heard of Peter Tobin. That's because there's no national English TV news or newspapers. So a big murder in England gets UK coverage, but a similar murder in Scotland only gets Scottish coverage. It's just a quirk of the media markets.

Definitely a huge part of it is "that could be me/ my wife/ my daughter". It's probably subconscious but because those who decide what goes on telly and in newspapers are white and middle class, that's what they think their customers will want to hear about and that's the murder victims that get coverage. 

 

[GordonS]

16 minutes ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

Should you be visiting pals during lockdown what does wee Nippy have to say?

Sorry, what?

And do you really think this is the right thread for a gendered insult?

[CountyFan]

30 minutes ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

Should you be visiting pals during lockdown what does wee Nippy have to say?

Clearly you're joking but this is victim blaming and marks you out as a c**t. 

[Priti priti priti Patel]

20 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Ask any women about all the ways they alter their lives to reduce their risks of being attacked by a man. I've asked a few, and for them it's constant. Things I take for granted like going for a walk in the countryside on a sunny day, my wife won't do that alone. It's utterly ridiculous that half the country are still living like this in 2021.

I asked the women on our pals' WhatsApp group tonight if they were willing to share their stories and all of them had at least one. Stalking, groping, threatening behaviour, being corners by two men and forced into giving a phone number, getting followed. None of them have really bad stories, none have had abusive partners or been seriously sexually assaulted, though all but one know someone who's been raped. Men don't have much idea how much of this goes on because women talk to each other about it, not to us, and it's not like men talk to each other about the raping they've done.

I've looked at the stats before and yeah, most women who are victims of murder are killed by someone they know. About half are killed by a current or ex partner. A woman is three times more likely to be killed in those circumstances than a man. I'm certain the main reason there aren't a lot more murders is because almost all women factor safety into their choices all the time. 

 I am well aware that bad stuff happens to women all the time. I've had three serious relationships and one girl who was a best friend with no romantic angle. All four of them have told me about some form of sexual assault or rape that they had suffered. I am definitely aware that it happens.

But the fact that women factor safety into their choices all of the time and generally live in fear does not actually mean that the fear is always necessary. To use a flippant example to illustrate the logic: the fact a wee birdy flies away from me everytime I'm near it doesn't mean that I would have gone for the bird. Just because you feel fear and act to mitigate the perceived risk doesn't mean that the risk actually existed, or existed to the degree you perceived it, or would have materialized if you hadn't acted. However, we rarely stop to recognise that fact, and indeed doing so has no practical benefit in keeping oneself safe.

So basically just because women take all these steps such as not walking at night etc, it doesn't necessarily follow that walking around at night would be very dangerous for them, nor that it would be more dangerous for them than for men, since currently men are more than twice as likely to be victims of homicide generally, and even more likely to be victims of non-sexual or non-domestic homicide.

Just as I have been told by several women of the things they've suffered, I know of similar for the men in my life. I myself got jumped randomly when I was 20 by three guys, had my face absolutely mashed up, and I've been randomly threatened countless times in London. My brother had a knife stuck into his skull. I've also mentioned four murders in two years within a one mile radius of my home, all blokes, none getting very much media coverage.

Another aspect that goes into it is the gender roles we're socialized into. These do lead to certain characteristics being more common in men or women, including negative characteristics. One of which might be a greater comfort among women with recognizing they are a victim, feeling vulnerable, or asking for help. There may be loads of sexual assault happening to men that isn't spoken about. On a recent podcast, Tim Ferriss revealed that he had been abused as a child, and said that after doing so about 8 of his 10 or 12 close male friends revealed that they had too.

These are just an assortment of random thoughts. They're not a complete analysis of the situation. I don't think a complete analysis is possible since it will be so multifaceted. But I would say that the generally accepted narrative seems (to me) to be that women alone are at threat in society from violence (whether sexual or otherwise), that their level of threat is significant, and that the threat emanates from men. Inevitably, therefore, any kind of critical analysis is going to be challenging that narrative.

Just for avoidance of doubt, I care for a few reasons, none of which involve misogyny. I am interested in analysis and argumentation. I have an aversion to any kind of received wisdom. And I know a lot of long suffering men who don't feel able to speak about it.

I appreciate the night a woman has been found dead at the hands of a man seems a strange time to raise it, but, tbf, I can't think when else this subject would come up.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Margaret Thatcher

[djchapsticks]

29 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Ask any women about all the ways they alter their lives to reduce their risks of being attacked by a man. I've asked a few, and for them it's constant. Things I take for granted like going for a walk in the countryside on a sunny day, my wife won't do that alone. It's utterly ridiculous that half the country are still living like this in 2021.

I asked the women on our pals' WhatsApp group tonight if they were willing to share their stories and all of them had at least one. Stalking, groping, threatening behaviour, being corners by two men and forced into giving a phone number, getting followed. None of them have really bad stories, none have had abusive partners or been seriously sexually assaulted, though all but one know someone who's been raped. Men don't have much idea how much of this goes on because women talk to each other about it, not to us, and it's not like men talk to each other about the raping they've done.

I've looked at the stats before and yeah, most women who are victims of murder are killed by someone they know. About half are killed by a current or ex partner. A woman is three times more likely to be killed in those circumstances than a man. I'm certain the main reason there aren't a lot more murders is because almost all women factor safety into their choices all the time. 

Serious question though, how do you significantly reduce that?

You are always going to have the outliers in society who fully understand that rape, sexual assault and inappropriate behaviour is abhorrent and they shouldn't do it but will carry on anyway because they don't give a shit about the concept of boundaries and basic decency. 

In most cases it's not an education issue, you don't make these people understand that shoddy behaviour to women is wrong and they go 'well f**k I didn't know that' and change their ways. 

There should be no circumstances in which any woman feels afraid to go out themselves or that they need to assess their own behavioural patterns to reduce their risk of being attacked for the crime of existing in the same space as a creepy b*****d.

But how do you get to that? It is something that should be strived for because of course it fucking should, but it genuinely feels to me like something that is not actually achievable.

[GordonS]

22 minutes ago, Margaret Thatcher said:

 I am well aware that bad stuff happens to women all the time. I've had three serious relationships and one girl who was a best friend with no romantic angle. All four of them have told me about some form of sexual assault or rape that they had suffered. I am definitely aware that it happens.

But the fact that women factor safety into their choices all of the time and generally live in fear does not actually mean that the fear is always necessary. To use a flippant example to illustrate the logic: the fact a wee birdy flies away from me everytime I'm near it doesn't mean that I would have gone for the bird. Just because you feel fear and act to mitigate the perceived risk doesn't mean that the risk actually existed, or existed to the degree you perceived it, or would have materialized if you hadn't acted. However, we rarely stop to recognise that fact, and indeed doing so has no practical benefit in keeping oneself safe.

So basically just because women take all these steps such as not walking at night etc, it doesn't necessarily follow that walking around at night would be very dangerous for them, nor that it would be more dangerous for them than for men, since currently men are more than twice as likely to be victims of homicide generally, and even more likely to be victims of non-sexual or non-domestic homicide.

Just as I have been told by several women of the things they've suffered, I know of similar for the men in my life. I myself got jumped randomly when I was 20 by three guys, had my face absolutely mashed up, and I've been randomly threatened countless times in London. My brother had a knife stuck into his skull. I've also mentioned four murders in two years within a one mile radius of my home, all blokes, none getting very much media coverage.

Another aspect that goes into it is the gender roles we're socialized into. These do lead to certain characteristics being more common in men or women, including negative characteristics. One of which might be a greater comfort among women with recognizing they are a victim, feeling vulnerable, or asking for help. There may be loads of sexual assault happening to men that isn't spoken about. On a recent podcast, Tim Ferriss revealed that he had been abused as a child, and said that after doing so about 8 of his 10 or 12 close male friends revealed that they had too.

These are just an assortment of random thoughts. They're not a complete analysis of the situation. I don't think a complete analysis is possible since it will be so multifaceted. But I would say that the generally accepted narrative seems (to me) to be that women alone are at threat in society from violence (whether sexual or otherwise), that their level of threat is significant, and that the threat emanates from men. Inevitably, therefore, any kind of critical analysis is going to be challenging that narrative.

Just for avoidance of doubt, I care for a few reasons, none of which involve misogyny. I am interested in analysis and argumentation. I have an aversion to any kind of received wisdom. And I know a lot of long suffering men who don't feel able to speak about it.

I appreciate the night a woman has been found dead at the hands of a man seems a strange time to raise it, but, tbf, I can't think when else this subject would come up.

This is a terrible take. It's #NotAllMen, plus mEn ArE vIcTiMs ToO like anyone is saying they're not or like it's relevant to the discussion about women's safety in public, plus "it's not that scary out there so women should just get over it".

I grew up running away from neds in Glasgow and when I was a teenager I was at more risk than a female. But the key thing is that age and location changes those things. Women have to think about their safety at all ages and everywhere.

You should listen to women more.

[Priti priti priti Patel]

8 minutes ago, GordonS said:

This is a terrible take. It's #NotAllMen, plus mEn ArE vIcTiMs ToO like anyone is saying they're not or like it's relevant to the discussion about women's safety in public, plus "it's not that scary out there so women should just get over it".

I grew up running away from neds in Glasgow and when I was a teenager I was at more risk than a female. But the key thing is that age and location changes those things. Women have to think about their safety at all ages and everywhere.

You should listen to women more.

Okay, pal. Well thanks for the predictable response. I mean, it's not any of those cringey buzzwords you've put in: it's a discussion that's stemmed from my original post where I said that we'll never know the true economics of risk, and a discussion that concluded in my most recent post by observing that the prevailing narrative stands to be critiqued but that doesn't mean I'm opposing it. Of course, none of the above is posted for your benefit, because you don't seem familiar with the idea that people can discuss topics without making snap judgments, it's for the other people on the forum.

I will say this though: people like you, who cannot distinguish between rational  critiques and criticism, are the enemy of truth and progress, regardless of what topic is being discussed. Dramatic and flowery, aye, but it's true.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Margaret Thatcher

[GordonS]

2 minutes ago, djchapsticks said:

Serious question though, how do you significantly reduce that?

Well we could start with not tolerating bad attitudes towards women and see where that gets us. Don't accept it at work, from friends, from family. If you ask women about it, or read the stuff all over social media today, it's endemic. Assaults, harassment, discrimination, it's constant. We all treat this stuff as normal because it's always been around us, and because women don't tell us about it all. One of my friends reeled off 6 stories tonight that she hadn't told us before. 

It's hard-wired into us - both men and women - that women are a bit inferior, that they're sex objects, that they're not to be taken as seriously as men. On here you can't so much as mention a women without some wag saying "wid". Aye, it's funny and all, but it's relentless and it shapes a mentality. There are millions of examples like this.

All of these things are tiny and trivial on their own. They're a drop in the ocean - but the ocean is made up of drops, and you can only empty this ocean one drop at a time.

I have no idea if that will do anything at all to reduce murders, that's maybe more a criminal justice thing and there will always be b*****ds, but I'd like to give it a go and find out. And I'm sure it would help fix a lot of other problems along the way, like the harassment and the groping.

[GordonS]

4 minutes ago, Margaret Thatcher said:

Okay, pal. Well thanks for the predictable response. I mean, it's not any of those cringey buzzwords you've put in: it's a discussion that's stemmed from my original post where I said that we'll never know the true economics of risk, and a discussion that concluded in my most recent post by observing that the prevailing narrative stands to be critiqued but that doesn't mean I'm opposing it. Of course, none of the above is posted for your benefit, because you don't seem familiar with the idea that people can discuss topics without making snap judgments, it's for the other people on the forum.

I will say this though: people like you, who cannot distinguish between rational  critiques and criticism, are the enemy of truth and progress, regardless of what topic is being discussed. Dramatic and flowery, aye, but it's true.

"The economics of risk"...

You're OFTW, pal. Away and put your Piers Morgan's Greatest Hits video on.