Wages of highest-paid players at the smaller clubs?

[ahemps]

20 hours ago, welldaft said:

 

Average First-Team Player Salary at Premiership Clubs

1. Celtic - £895,564
2. Rangers -£649,771
3. Aberdeen - £140,461
4. Hearts - £137,942
5. Hibernian - £119,700
6. Kilmarnock - £68,412
7. St Johnstone - £62,691
8. Motherwell - £59,304
9. Ross County - £55,574
10. St Mirren - £48,621
11. Livingston - £43,105
12. Hamilton Accies - £41,154

Seems about right. Big leap between provincial and big city clubs and then huge leap to the Old Firm.

Based on this Killie are the most underperforming team and Liv over performing this season so far at least.  

@AmericanFan What is your view on the wage disparity in Scotland?

In the last few years I have been very interested in the American sports systems, drafts, wage caps etc. and I now totally believe you have it much better than the European football model. I am sure there are things wrong with your systems and there are good bits to ours but on the whole your structure is far more conducive to creating a genuine competitive balance.

[AmericanFan]

57 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Not everyone obviously.  Guys like Jake Mulraney and Jordan White were/are probably only on £150 or so more a week than they were at The Caley.  They won't have jumped from £500 to £2k a week i wouldn't have thought.

Plus, Kevin Kyle is a bad example.  He played for Rangers and in the Barclays.  He's hardly jumping from £500 to £600  a week is he.

My point is, clubs pay a lot less than folk on here think they do.  Usually they're just bitter after their club has lost a player to another club.

What's a flat go for in Inverness?

[TheScarf]

8 minutes ago, AmericanFan said:

What's a flat go for in Inverness?

No idea of flats specifically but the average house price is £201,000 where as somewhere like Glasgow is £195,000.

Edit - You'd imagine the cost of living is higher in Inverness than the central belt, given public transport is cheaper, cars are cheaper to buy etc down there., but jobs are better paid.

Edited March 15, 2021 by TheScarf

[AmericanFan]

11 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

No idea of flats specifically but the average house price is £201,000 where as somewhere like Glasgow is £195,000.

Edit - You'd imagine the cost of living is higher in Inverness than the central belt, given public transport is cheaper, cars are cheaper to buy etc down there., but jobs are better paid.

Sorry, I meant, what would it take to rent an apartment (flat?) per month? Not sure of the correct flat/apartment terms over there.

[mishtergrolsch]

1 hour ago, The Marly said:

12 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Mark Connolly is the most overpaid player at United, Pawlett a very close second.

Has Shankland left?

[craigkillie]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Kevin Kyle was earning £100k a year basic with Hearts...

That sounds like it would just be a wee bit more than what we were paying him, given that he was a high profile signing for us when he joined.

[ATLIS]

I remember when Halkett left Livi he went from about 1.2k p/w to 8k p/w. Mental money.

I think Livi's highest is probably about 1,400/1,500 or so. Imagining it'll be Bartley/Efe/Pittman/Mullin on the highest

[RandomGuy.]

8 hours ago, craigkillie said:

That sounds like it would just be a wee bit more than what we were paying him, given that he was a high profile signing for us when he joined.

Yeah, and then another top flight club offered him around £700 a week.

The drop off from Aberdeen/Edinburgh and probably Dundee sides to the rest is bigger than most folk think I reckon. The highest earners at the other clubs bridge the gap a wee bit, but I'd be surprised if Aberdeens average wage wasn't higher than our highest earner.

[AmericanFan]

11 hours ago, ahemps said:

@AmericanFan What is your view on the wage disparity in Scotland?

In the last few years I have been very interested in the American sports systems, drafts, wage caps etc. and I now totally believe you have it much better than the European football model. I am sure there are things wrong with your systems and there are good bits to ours but on the whole your structure is far more conducive to creating a genuine competitive balance.

The SPFL somewhat reminds me of Major League Baseball from 95-08 (and even currently) as wage bill differences are quite large. There's no wage bill cap in MLB, so teams in the larger markets -- New York, LA, Chicago -- usually have significantly higher wage bills than smaller market teams -- Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Cincinnatti. This is usually due to their local media deals being worldly higher (the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs all get more than $100 million a year from their local deals, while some teams don't even get $30 million) and having richer owners. But in the last 12 or so years, there's been more revenue sharing, where it's thought that teams like my KC Royals (what my profile pic is) receive a decent amount of cash transferred from Dodgers/Yankees/Cubs etc.

As to the wage disparity in Scotland, I don't have the knowledge as to what could be done to improve it, if anything. The OF seemingly will always have an advantage because they can sell 30-50K tickets a match, have a large supporter base and seemingly have large £ backing. That allows them the opportunity to earn even more cash in Europe (what's Rangers made the last two years in Europe? £14 million?). Same to a lesser degree it appears with Edinburgh clubs (and maybe Aberdeen), whereas someone like Kilmarnock, St. Johnstone or Accies can only do so much when you have crowds between 3K and 8K and ownership that is "only" worth £10-20 million (I'm guessing here).

From reading the comments, I think there's a bit of lack of respect for what Scotland as a whole is able to do. It's a country the size of South Carolina with the population of Missouri that fields 20 full-time sides. I think that's way more impressive than people here realize.

One of the reasons the NFL is insanely popular over here is every team is under the same financial circumstances/restraint with the salary cap and the sharing of the league-wide TV deal. It's why the Packers can compete at the same level as the Giants (whether the salary cap is too low is another discussion).

[The Marly]

Yeah, and then another top flight club offered him around £700 a week.
The drop off from Aberdeen/Edinburgh and probably Dundee sides to the rest is bigger than most folk think I reckon. The highest earners at the other clubs bridge the gap a wee bit, but I'd be surprised if Aberdeens average wage wasn't higher than our highest earner.

And yet we've won more trophies in the last decade.

[welldaft]

25 minutes ago, The Marly said:

11 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Yeah, and then another top flight club offered him around £700 a week.
The drop off from Aberdeen/Edinburgh and probably Dundee sides to the rest is bigger than most folk think I reckon. The highest earners at the other clubs bridge the gap a wee bit, but I'd be surprised if Aberdeens average wage wasn't higher than our highest earner.

And yet we've won more trophies in the last decade.

It kinda helps when you play Dundee United and Livingston in the final.

Our last 4 finals since we won in 1991 have been Celtic x 3 and Rangers x 1. When both were at the peak of their powers so to speak. 

Before you take umbrage well done on winning the trophies. Wish it was the Well. The luck of the draw plays a large part. 

[mishtergrolsch]

23 minutes ago, The Marly said:

11 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Yeah, and then another top flight club offered him around £700 a week.
The drop off from Aberdeen/Edinburgh and probably Dundee sides to the rest is bigger than most folk think I reckon. The highest earners at the other clubs bridge the gap a wee bit, but I'd be surprised if Aberdeens average wage wasn't higher than our highest earner.

And yet we've won more trophies in the last decade.

Money dosent always mean success.

A decent manager with a core of consistent yet bang average players that stick around long enough to create a solid foundation with a few decent skillful players added here and there can do serious damage in Scotland.

Thats not having a pop at any team in particular. From a Utd point of view, id have loved a few bang average plodders in our relegation team and subsequent Banter Years squads. Instead we had Blair Spittal, Mark Durnan, Coll Donaldson, Charlie Telfer and Aidan Connolly. And not to mention the biggest problem of the lot, charlatan in chief, Jackie McNaFortune. 

[ahemps]

9 hours ago, AmericanFan said:

The SPFL somewhat reminds me of Major League Baseball from 95-08 (and even currently) as wage bill differences are quite large. There's no wage bill cap in MLB, so teams in the larger markets -- New York, LA, Chicago -- usually have significantly higher wage bills than smaller market teams -- Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Cincinnatti. This is usually due to their local media deals being worldly higher (the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs all get more than $100 million a year from their local deals, while some teams don't even get $30 million) and having richer owners. But in the last 12 or so years, there's been more revenue sharing, where it's thought that teams like my KC Royals (what my profile pic is) receive a decent amount of cash transferred from Dodgers/Yankees/Cubs etc.

I am not fully aware of the MLB structure, thanks for this.

If you tried to get Celtic and Rangers to give up some of their commercial revenue you'd get laughed out of town. Clubs in Scotland used to share gate receipts but I think that changed around the 70's or 80's, this would have still favoured Celtic and Rangers as they would get half of 60k every 2nd week while the rest only get it twice a season.

9 hours ago, AmericanFan said:

As to the wage disparity in Scotland, I don't have the knowledge as to what could be done to improve it, if anything. The OF seemingly will always have an advantage because they can sell 30-50K tickets a match, have a large supporter base and seemingly have large £ backing. That allows them the opportunity to earn even more cash in Europe (what's Rangers made the last two years in Europe? £14 million?). Same to a lesser degree it appears with Edinburgh clubs (and maybe Aberdeen), whereas someone like Kilmarnock, St. Johnstone or Accies can only do so much when you have crowds between 3K and 8K and ownership that is "only" worth £10-20 million (I'm guessing here).

Fans are attracted to success though, places like Hamilton, Kilmarnock and Perth will have more OF fans than support the team from their town/city. As the OF continue to win the trophies and get financially rewarded by prize money and European money then that cycle is extremely hard to break. Only really Edinburgh and Aberdeen would OF fans not be the dominant supported teams but even in these cities they still have a very significant support.

9 hours ago, AmericanFan said:

From reading the comments, I think there's a bit of lack of respect for what Scotland as a whole is able to do. It's a country the size of South Carolina with the population of Missouri that fields 20 full-time sides. I think that's way more impressive than people here realize.

Is it impressive that we have full time sides that pull in less than 3k supporters? I suppose it is in some ways but in other ways it dilutes the overall game as well. I think of it from both of they views.

10 hours ago, AmericanFan said:

One of the reasons the NFL is insanely popular over here is every team is under the same financial circumstances/restraint with the salary cap and the sharing of the league-wide TV deal. It's why the Packers can compete at the same level as the Giants (whether the salary cap is too low is another discussion).

This is a great thing though, obviously New York is a more lucrative and high profile place to be and has much more commercial potential so in our structure Green Bay would get left behind. I believe the Packers average attendance is almost identical to that of the giants though. It is like a city like Newcastle finding it very difficult to compete with London clubs yet they have as big and as passionate a support as anyone else. 

This whole topic interest me greatly and I genuinely see the pros and cons and different views on all of it.

Thanks for your response.

[AmericanFan]

6 hours ago, ahemps said:

Fans are attracted to success though, places like Hamilton, Kilmarnock and Perth will have more OF fans than support the team from their town/city. As the OF continue to win the trophies and get financially rewarded by prize money and European money then that cycle is extremely hard to break. Only really Edinburgh and Aberdeen would OF fans not be the dominant supported teams but even in these cities they still have a very significant support.
 

Understandable, but there's really nothing that can be done about that. Like you noted, it's just kind of human nature that people are flocking to teams that win a lot/get the most media coverage/etc. (see: Yankees, Cowboys, Lakers).  And in the OF's defense (which won't win me any points here), it's not like they should discourage people from supporting them.

 

6 hours ago, ahemps said:

Is it impressive that we have full time sides that pull in less than 3k supporters? I suppose it is in some ways but in other ways it dilutes the overall game as well. I think of it from both of they views.

I think looking at it from a far out perspective is key here, and I'll put the visiting teams in parentheses. Let's say on a current Saturday, both Rangers (Hibs) and Celtic (St. Johnstone) play at home and draw crowds of 40K each. Aberdeen (Livingston) draws 12K at home while Accies (St. Mirren) draws 2,500, Ross County (Motherwell) gets 3,500 and United (Kilmarnock) draws 7,000.  Meanwhile, in the Championship, Hearts gets a crowd of 12K and the other four matches average crowds of 1,500.

Throw in the League 1 and League 2 crowds, and on a random Saturday in Scotland, there are more than 125K fans attending a match, with let's say another 60K (complete guess) watching on TV. Considering the amount of matches played throughout the year, that's insanely good (it's not like American football, where each team basically has 9 home contests a year).

Also, the full-time sides in Scotland outside of Ross County and ICT in the Highlands, mostly seem to be within a very close distance of each other. So while on the face of it, when Motherwell gets a crowd of 5K for a match vs. Kilmarnock it may not at first seem all that impressive, but when you consider there are nine other matches going on within 70 kilometers, a match on TV and Scotland's population of 5 million, that's pretty good.

[Derry Alli]

3 hours ago, AmericanFan said:

And in the OF's defense 

1. Never defend the Old Firm. 

2. Its defence, no matter if you are American! 

[mishtergrolsch]

3 hours ago, AmericanFan said:

Understandable, but there's really nothing that can be done about that. Like you noted, it's just kind of human nature that people are flocking to teams that win a lot/get the most media coverage/etc. (see: Yankees, Cowboys, Lakers).  And in the OF's defense (which won't win me any points here), it's not like they should discourage people from supporting them.

 

I think looking at it from a far out perspective is key here, and I'll put the visiting teams in parentheses. Let's say on a current Saturday, both Rangers (Hibs) and Celtic (St. Johnstone) play at home and draw crowds of 40K each. Aberdeen (Livingston) draws 12K at home while Accies (St. Mirren) draws 2,500, Ross County (Motherwell) gets 3,500 and United (Kilmarnock) draws 7,000.  Meanwhile, in the Championship, Hearts gets a crowd of 12K and the other four matches average crowds of 1,500.

Throw in the League 1 and League 2 crowds, and on a random Saturday in Scotland, there are more than 125K fans attending a match, with let's say another 60K (complete guess) watching on TV. Considering the amount of matches played throughout the year, that's insanely good (it's not like American football, where each team basically has 9 home contests a year).

Also, the full-time sides in Scotland outside of Ross County and ICT in the Highlands, mostly seem to be within a very close distance of each other. So while on the face of it, when Motherwell gets a crowd of 5K for a match vs. Kilmarnock it may not at first seem all that impressive, but when you consider there are nine other matches going on within 70 kilometers, a match on TV and Scotland's population of 5 million, that's pretty good.

Also throw in the hoovering up of fans by Sky and BT to watch the sanitised English leagues.

[Cptn Hooch]

On 15/03/2021 at 19:46, ATLIS said:

I remember when Halkett left Livi he went from about 1.2k p/w to 8k p/w. Mental money.

I think Livi's highest is probably about 1,400/1,500 or so. Imagining it'll be Bartley/Efe/Pittman/Mullin on the highest

Not sure how accurate it is but this site has a list of every Premiership club. Our highest earner is Serrano but i'd imagine Monaco are subsidising most of that. The highest paid player owned by Livi is apparently Fitzwater who's on around £3k a week. The numbers aren't a million miles away from where I'd expect them tbh

 

https://salarysport.com/football/scottish-premiership/livingston/

Edited March 17, 2021 by Cptn Hooch
forgot the link

[coprolite]

I remember reading an interview with Charlie Nicholas saying he signed for us because we were offering £4k a week, which was more than Arsenal offered to keep him. 

In today's money, that's over £11k. I'd be astonished if we paid anyone anything like that today. That was before we splurged in the expectation of tv money, it cost buttons to get in to the ground, and our crowds weren't notably bigger, if at all. 

Was that sort of wage normal for that time? And how on earth could we afford it then but not now? 

[ATLIS]

5 hours ago, Cptn Hooch said:

Not sure how accurate it is but this site has a list of every Premiership club. Our highest earner is Serrano but i'd imagine Monaco are subsidising most of that. The highest paid player owned by Livi is apparently Fitzwater who's on around £3k a week. The numbers aren't a million miles away from where I'd expect them tbh

 

https://salarysport.com/football/scottish-premiership/livingston/

There's no chance. We don't publicly release wage statistics and also we don't split player wages from staff wages either in the accounts. That has Livi's wage per year at almost 2m, when our annual turnover (and wages per year) is closer to 1-1.2m.

Same website has Hamilton paying 840k a year. Also and Ross County at 1.36m despite the fact they can comfortably offer more money than Livi.

Can comfortably sort it into nonsense though as it has Livi paying more than Killie and St Mirren

Edited March 17, 2021 by ATLIS

[tree house tam]

On 16/03/2021 at 15:11, AmericanFan said:

 Let's say on a current Saturday, both Rangers (Hibs) and Celtic (St. Johnstone) play at home and draw crowds of 40K each.

Cities with 2 big clubs rarely have them both playing at home on the same day due to crowd control issues.