Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[PossilYM]

1 hour ago, Jacksgranda said:

There's 5 facing instant administration, as I understand it.

Name and shame.

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, Sparticus said:

I hope they go to England

So do they, but not even the fifth tier would touch them with a barge pole. Their only chance is being invited to the second or third tier of a breakaway Euro league.

They've no idea how well-off they are. The reality would likely be yo-yoing between the top two tiers like Newcastle and Sunderland, with a European campaign every decade or more. Not sure how well the hordes would take double-digit defeats in the league every season.

[Cowdenleith]

2 minutes ago, BTFD said:

So do they, but not even the fifth tier would touch them with a barge pole. Their only chance is being invited to the second or third tier of a breakaway Euro league.

They've no idea how well-off they are. The reality would likely be yo-yoing between the top two tiers like Newcastle and Sunderland, with a European campaign every decade or more. Not sure how well the hordes would take double-digit defeats in the league every season.

I disagree, it may take them time to establish themselves, but as they would share in the same revenue as all the other clubs in the PL they would eventually become forces I reckon. Like it or not they do both have massive fanbases, not just in this country.

I would be delighted to get them on their way out of Scottish football, but like you say they are not wanted in England.

[BuddyZero]

1 hour ago, Sparticus said:

B teams in the pyramid would only benefit  the old firm, and so any club would be entitled to a b team somewhere in the pyramid.This would pretty much wreck every league in Scotland just as we've opened up the leagues to all the great smaller town clubs.The old firm have recently ruined Scottish womens football ( thats done )and the lowland leagues integrity (whoever runs the lowland league take the shame)

As if the foregone conclusion that is the Scottish premier isnt enough, they want to dominate every part of Scottish football.

I'm pretty sure that collectively the rest of Scottish football is far bigger than the old firm.

I hope they go to England

 

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but the thing Scottish football in general could do with more of is money.  This should be seen as a rare opportunity to separate the biggest teams from as much of their money as possible.

If you don't think the hypothetical 200k per year would be a sufficient disincentive for more than a handful of teams, what higher fee would do the job? 500k? Maybe then even the old firm wouldn't sign up - so problem solved in terms of them coming in. I'd be happy for them have the option to join the pyramid but only if they want to pay a relative fortune - which would certainly be of an amount to be of significant, tangible benefit to the other clubs in that league. What we have currently is them being inserted as interlopers halfway up the pyramid for comparative pennies which benefits nobody. The only clubs with any money are Rangers and Celtic but the LL have undersold their product while damaging it. Although I'd question the suggestion that the LL ever had any integrity: the clubs that have been promoted out of it were either the existing big fish of the EOSFL or Juniors with some deep pockets, backing of a decent sized community and good organisation. The likes of East Kilbride have failed to capitalise on the opportunity, but managed to collaborate to shut the door on more worthy candidates via the very stingy relegation system. 

[BFTD]

3 minutes ago, Cowdenleith said:

I disagree, it may take them time to establish themselves, but as they would share in the same revenue as all the other clubs in the PL they would eventually become forces I reckon. Like it or not they do both have massive fanbases, not just in this country.

I would be delighted to get them on their way out of Scottish football, but like you say they are not wanted in England.

I know, that's what they think too. So long as it got rid of them, who cares, but the only way it would happen would be if Scottish football went completely bankrupt and they could say they had nowhere else to go.

Wait, hang on...

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Cowdenleith said:

I disagree, it may take them time to establish themselves, but as they would share in the same revenue as all the other clubs in the PL they would eventually become forces I reckon. Like it or not they do both have massive fanbases, not just in this country.

It's not the revenue that PL clubs get that turns teams into a 'force' its the Billionaires & Investment funds. The time of O'Neill & Advocaat where they only needed some TV money is long gone.

[Cowdenleith]

Just now, FairWeatherFan said:

It's not the revenue that PL clubs get that turns teams into a 'force' its the Billionaires & Investment funds. The time of O'Neill & Advocaat where they only needed some TV money is long gone.

If they got a foothold in the English game, you don’t think in time they would both become attractive to some horrible regime with limitless resources? Sadly, I think they would.

[Dev]

Is it accurate, does anyone know, if Real Madrid's Reserve team, i.e.  Real Madrid Castilla, has to be run and registered entirely separately within the Spanish League with transfers of players etc done as though they were entirely separate clubs. This means that players cannot play for both "clubs" in the same season without appropriate transfers being carried out.

If the worst comes to the worst, in many eyes, shouldn't B teams be run, during the playing season, as separate team squads. You cannot have players chopping and changing from week to week. That would be extremely unfair on the other non "B" teams which they would be playing against as it would directly affect the final league tables (promotions, relegations, etc).

[Guest]

1 hour ago, BuddyZero said:

I'm probably one of the few who is slightly more open minded about B teams overall BUT there should be integrity and incentive of an appropriate level to balance out the many negative aspects.

 

If Rangers and Celtic want their kids in, it should be at West of Scotland D4, and paying 200k each. If they are promoted to D3, the fee rises by say 25% per level = 250k, and so on. They could be promoted and relegated like every other participant (but not to the Premiership obviously). Ideally there would be some kind of proviso that the cash to each real club is initially invested improving facilities etc so there is actually a material benefit to the football structure in the country.

Something like 200k a year is pocket change to the old firm but more of an impediment to almost every other club so that would probably prevent an influx of Bs joining the system, but if some decide they want to stump up the cash and start at the bottom, is that not sort of fair enough? Definitely a whole lot better than parachuting into the LL for a pittance.

In the end, yes there would probably be stockpiling by Celtic and Rangers and it would benefit them more than others - but the never-ending two horse race has been firmly re-established anyway, and this way at least they would be putting more money into the game at lower levels. And if the likes of Hamilton want to splure all their money to the WOSFL in the hope of developing another Mccarthy and McArthur via Accies B getting horsed by Glenafton, Glencairn and Gartcairn, that's their judgement call.

I think it could have positives, but the main consideration is for the relevant bodies to have the will not to bend over for the big clubs but take them to the cleaners financially for the privilege, and make them work their way up so at least one can say they have done the work and deserve to be at whatever level they reach. 

I understand what you're saying. The lowest tiers in the pyramid are full of generally youth players from boys clubs and ex-ammies. With a sprinkling of older semi-pros getting into coaching or dropping down levels.

I have two observations;

The b teams are generally full timers so what benefit will they get from playing teams like I have mentioned?

Why should players who work full time or in full time education and their football at the weekend is in the main for enjoyment, be subjected to playing against full time, pampered, prima donnas.

Being probably beaten easily and chasing shadows around the pitch.

Who benefits from this scenario?

[searchers1963]

34 minutes ago, Dev said:

Is it accurate, does anyone know, if Real Madrid's Reserve team, i.e.  Real Madrid Castilla, has to be run and registered entirely separately within the Spanish League with transfers of players etc done as though they were entirely separate clubs. This means that players cannot play for both "clubs" in the same season without appropriate transfers being carried out.

If the worst comes to the worst, in many eyes, shouldn't B teams be run, during the playing season, as separate team squads. You cannot have players chopping and changing from week to week. That would be extremely unfair on the other non "B" teams which they would be playing against as it would directly affect the final league tables (promotions, relegations, etc).

As a follower of Las palmas who are just promoted to la liga for next season I've not seen them drop anyone to the b team before but they can promote them seen it a few seasons back where Erik exposito got promoted to first team quite late in the season. 

[FairWeatherFan]

55 minutes ago, Cowdenleith said:

If they got a foothold in the English game, you don’t think in time they would both become attractive to some horrible regime with limitless resources? Sadly, I think they would.

I think Celtic might. Rangers would probably find themselves 2nd fiddle.

The horse has long since bolted on these hypotheticals. Celtic & Rangers aren't getting into the PL anytime soon and wouldn't start there. Most of the limitless regimes have picked up their clubs.

 

[BFTD]

9 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I think Celtic might. Rangers would probably find themselves 2nd fiddle.

The horse has long since bolted on these hypotheticals. Celtic & Rangers aren't getting into the PL anytime soon and wouldn't start there. Most of the limitless regimes have picked up their clubs.

That's the problem for them; not only aren't they getting into English football, there wouldn't be anything particularly attractive about them to billionaire vanity investors anyway.

The lack of a mythical "massive global audience" certainly didn't put off the people who bought the likes of Chelsea and Manchester City, so it's not even like that's a consideration. Depressingly, if you pay enough to get a club into the Champions League, the audience magically appears.

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, BTFD said:

That's the problem for them; not only aren't they getting into English football, there wouldn't be anything particularly attractive about them to billionaire vanity investors anyway.

The lack of a mythical "massive global audience" certainly didn't put off the people who bought the likes of Chelsea and Manchester City, so it's not even like that's a consideration. Depressingly, if you pay enough to get a club into the Champions League, the audience magically appears.

A lot of these arguments are 20-30 years old now from when the Premier League started and was getting its foothold globally. Still want to aspire to the PL great...somebody needs to fill the spots when the big boys disappear into their own Super League.

[craigkillie]

5 hours ago, Dev said:

..... so, if desired, the arrangement could be ended by simply withdrawing the "invitations".

If they wanted to end the arrangement they probably wouldn't have voted in favour of the arrangement

[Dev]

14 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I think Celtic might. Rangers would probably find themselves 2nd fiddle.

The horse has long since bolted on these hypotheticals. Celtic & Rangers aren't getting into the PL anytime soon and wouldn't start there. Most of the limitless regimes have picked up their clubs.

 

IMO The English clubs in the EPL or those in the EFL with any dreams of playing, one day, in the EPL, are not likely to want to introduce outside competition from clubs which had the potential to take "their" place at the top table. Just not going to happen. The OF aren't big enough to buy their way in or pressure their way in.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Dev
.

[Dev]

4 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

If they wanted to end the arrangement they probably wouldn't have voted in favour of the arrangement

That was then but times have moved on rapidly.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Dev
.

[Tiger Driver]

14 hours ago, BuddyZero said:

I'm probably one of the few who is slightly more open minded about B teams overall BUT there should be integrity and incentive of an appropriate level to balance out the many negative aspects.

 

If Rangers and Celtic want their kids in, it should be at West of Scotland D4, and paying 200k each. If they are promoted to D3, the fee rises by say 25% per level = 250k, and so on. They could be promoted and relegated like every other participant (but not to the Premiership obviously). Ideally there would be some kind of proviso that the cash to each real club is initially invested improving facilities etc so there is actually a material benefit to the football structure in the country.

Something like 200k a year is pocket change to the old firm but more of an impediment to almost every other club so that would probably prevent an influx of Bs joining the system, but if some decide they want to stump up the cash and start at the bottom, is that not sort of fair enough? Definitely a whole lot better than parachuting into the LL for a pittance.

In the end, yes there would probably be stockpiling by Celtic and Rangers and it would benefit them more than others - but the never-ending two horse race has been firmly re-established anyway, and this way at least they would be putting more money into the game at lower levels. And if the likes of Hamilton want to splure all their money to the WOSFL in the hope of developing another Mccarthy and McArthur via Accies B getting horsed by Glenafton, Glencairn and Gartcairn, that's their judgement call.

I think it could have positives, but the main consideration is for the relevant bodies to have the will not to bend over for the big clubs but take them to the cleaners financially for the privilege, and make them work their way up so at least one can say they have done the work and deserve to be at whatever level they reach. 

Not in favour of 'B' teams in the league personally. However this is the best argument I've heard for their inclusion. 

[vikingTON]

14 hours ago, BuddyZero said:

I'm probably one of the few who is slightly more open minded about B teams overall BUT there should be integrity and incentive of an appropriate level to balance out the many negative aspects.

 

If Rangers and Celtic want their kids in, it should be at West of Scotland D4, and paying 200k each. If they are promoted to D3, the fee rises by say 25% per level = 250k, and so on. They could be promoted and relegated like every other participant (but not to the Premiership obviously). Ideally there would be some kind of proviso that the cash to each real club is initially invested improving facilities etc so there is actually a material benefit to the football structure in the country.

Something like 200k a year is pocket change to the old firm but more of an impediment to almost every other club so that would probably prevent an influx of Bs joining the system, but if some decide they want to stump up the cash and start at the bottom, is that not sort of fair enough? Definitely a whole lot better than parachuting into the LL for a pittance.

In the end, yes there would probably be stockpiling by Celtic and Rangers and it would benefit them more than others - but the never-ending two horse race has been firmly re-established anyway, and this way at least they would be putting more money into the game at lower levels. And if the likes of Hamilton want to splure all their money to the WOSFL in the hope of developing another Mccarthy and McArthur via Accies B getting horsed by Glenafton, Glencairn and Gartcairn, that's their judgement call.

I think it could have positives, but the main consideration is for the relevant bodies to have the will not to bend over for the big clubs but take them to the cleaners financially for the privilege, and make them work their way up so at least one can say they have done the work and deserve to be at whatever level they reach. 

Why should teams in the fourth tier of the West of Scotland league have to play nonsense reserve outfits? If it's not acceptable at tier 5 it's not acceptable at any level of the pyramid.

 

[razamanaz]

I still don't see how the B team full-time youngsters are gonna learn their trade facing joiners and brickies in the lower leagues. The Reserve League is the place to learn, playing against older, experienced players, or the loan system

[lowenan]

Has there been any response from Celtic or Hearts about Rangers pulling out?