Tory Lies, Corruption and Hypocrisy- Add Them Here

[10menwent2mow]

1 hour ago, Have some faith in Magic said:

It's getting genuinely dangerous. She is the one whipping up a frenzy of hate.

 

She's basically incited right-wingers to go out and confront the Palestinian march on Saturday and if it kicks off she can say, look at what the bad Palestinian march did, they got aggressive with our peaceful poppy wearing skinheads. 

[HTG]

Braverman is moving perilously close to "if we don't agree with you, we'll make whatever you're proposing illegal". Dangerous times for democracy. 

[Bairnardo]

I know there are issues with Starmers Labour, and not trivial ones either, but the GE cant come quick enough to get these c***s out. 

[scottsdad]

Just ask yourself this:

Would Margaret Thatcher have any of the current Tory cabinet in her Government?

I suspect not. Braverman would be catapulted into the sea for undermining the police. Grant Schapps wouldn't be given the role of tea boy, never mind Defence Secretary. All down the list of the current crop, you'd have to say no. 

[Boo Khaki]

Concerned about "Extremists" passing within a few hundred yards of the Cenotaph, but not a fucking dickie bird about the actual National Front walking straight up to it and laying an NF-adorned wreathe. 

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

The staunch folk of NI probably adore most of her policies, but they'll be seething that she's compared the Palestine protests to marching season.

[Dan Steele]

2 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

Braverman doesn't believe in half the lunacy that comes out of her own mouth. It's just weaponising hate to pander to the absolute dregs of English society, so she can position herself as the preferred right-wing leadership candidate when the current right-wing project inevitably fails, and they then conclude that's because they weren't sufficiently right wing and repugnant enough and a lurch even further to the right is required. Also clear she's trying to cosy up to ultra-cons in the States for speaking tour dates etc.

I'd argue she knows exactly what she's doing and saying. She may well be positioning herself as the far right candidate as next PM (aye, let's stop and think about that for a minute) but she spouts this pish knowing full well it'll be reported and hit the mark of those she's pandering to. No doubt she is carving out a future on the talk circuit, though.

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

It's funny that Braverman reckons the police are a bunch of woke lefty Marxists. I take it she's missed the numerous police group chats have been made public in recent years?

[Granny Danger]

13 minutes ago, Dan Steele said:

I'd argue she knows exactly what she's doing and saying. She may well be positioning herself as the far right candidate as next PM (aye, let's stop and think about that for a minute) but she spouts this pish knowing full well it'll be reported and hit the mark of those she's pandering to. No doubt she is carving out a future on the talk circuit, though.

Yes she knows exactly the impact of what she’s saying, but I think @Boo Khaki’s point is that she doesn’t believe it herself and I think Boo Khaki is correct.

It’s like Trump claiming he won in 2020.  He knows it’s a lie but it serves his purpose.

[houston_bud]

1 hour ago, BFTD said:

Aye, folk are giving her far too much credit by saying she's an unhinged loon. She's a psychopath, sure, but most of them will be. She's just seen the way BRITTAN! is going and isn't afraid to build a support base from an increasingly fascist electorate.

She's a member of some weird sect of Buddhism that has a pretty long line of accusations of sexual abuse. She's a nutter. 

[Granny Danger]

29 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

Just ask yourself this:

Would Margaret Thatcher have any of the current Tory cabinet in her Government?

I suspect not. Braverman would be catapulted into the sea for undermining the police. Grant Schapps wouldn't be given the role of tea boy, never mind Defence Secretary. All down the list of the current crop, you'd have to say no. 

Yes.  If she thought she could get away with it.  

[Fullerene]

29 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

Just ask yourself this:

Would Margaret Thatcher have any of the current Tory cabinet in her Government?

I suspect not. Braverman would be catapulted into the sea for undermining the police. Grant Schapps wouldn't be given the role of tea boy, never mind Defence Secretary. All down the list of the current crop, you'd have to say no. 

Some people credit Thatcher with the creation of the European Single Market.

Johnson got rid of any candidate that thought it was something the UK should be part of.

Say it quietly but they are the very opposite of what she intended for her party. 

[scottsdad]

6 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

Some people credit Thatcher with the creation of the European Single Market.

Johnson got rid of any candidate that thought it was something the UK should be part of.

Say it quietly but they are the very opposite of what she intended for her party. 

Exactly my point. If you look at what Thatcher believed in, and thought was important, the current mob think the opposite. 

If her home secretary was inflaming tensions like this and undermining the police, he (and it would be a man) wouldn't last 5 minutes. 

[Granny Danger]

4 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

Some people credit Thatcher with the creation of the European Single Market.

Johnson got rid of any candidate that thought it was something the UK should be part of.

Say it quietly but they are the very opposite of what she intended for her party. 

What you’re implying is the the political conditions in the U.K. in 2023 are the same as they were in 1979.  They’re not.

Thatcher did as much as she thought she could get away with then, she’d do the same now.

[Boo Khaki]

It's not in dispute that Thatcher frequently had to be reined in by some more temperate heads in her cabinet, but I don't think the pertinent thing here is really whether Thatcher was a big a c**t as the current HS or whether even she'd be appalled by some of the rhetoric, more that there are no temperate, moderating voices in the Parliamentary Tory party any longer, because anyone remotely sane saw the writing on the wall during the Brexit fiasco under May, and Johnson crawling out of the woodwork, and ran a fucking mile.

Never thought I'd see the day when I thought Parliament was worse off for seeing the back of a load of Tories, but if the party still actually had folk like Ken Clarke, Anna Soubry, David Gauke etc in positions of influence then we perhaps wouldn't be witnessing Government by a cartel of self-enriching criminal incompetents. Brexit emboldened the lunatics, the electorate handed the keys to Johnson, Johnson handed the party to the lunatics, and here we are. People make jokes about there being no such thing as a "decent" Tory, and there certainly isn't any more, but not so long ago there were a few Tory MP's with some sort of sense of decency and an understanding that governance is a covenant with the electorate which requires some minimum standards of behaviour, accountability, integrity etc

Johnson possesses none of these attributes as a person, so it's no wonder to me that they have also vanished from Government since 2019, or that the people he has left behind are similarly bereft of any sort of sense of decency or shame. Nobody with any integrity would have entertained him as party leader or PM, so it follows that what we're left with is the absolute worst of the Tory party, emboldened by the fact that there is no longer any internal barrier to them indulging the worst aspects of themselves.

I'm not contending for one moment that May's government, or any which preceded it, were bastions of honesty and integrity, but everything is relative, and by comparison with the current bunch of shithouses they all look comparatively benign and somewhat competent.

As an aside - don't you think that if Margaret Thatcher, while sitting as Prime Minister, had been fined by the Police for committing an offence, or indeed, had her Chancellor, it would have been an instantaneous resigning matter due to their position becoming completely untenable. MP's/Cabinet members used to get sacked/resign once upon a time, because even the Thatcher mob understood that thing about bare minimum standards. Not only was our last but one PM fined by the Police while in office, but the current PM was also fined while serving as Chancellor, and yet this is not apparently any impediment whatsoever to his suitability for the biggest job. Thatcher had plenty of cabinet resignations and sackings of her own to contend with, many of them for just as questionable behaviours as we see nowadays, but the point is those behaviours had consequences, whereas now the offenders tell us it's time to "move on" and it's all quickly forgotten about. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Boo Khaki

[KirkieRR]

I loathe myself for it, but ever since the Brexit vote and Bungling Bonzo becoming PM I've found myself multiple times starting remarks along the lines of 'Say what you like about Thatcher, but...'

[Fullerene]

1 hour ago, KirkieRR said:

I loathe myself for it, but ever since the Brexit vote and Bungling Bonzo becoming PM I've found myself multiple times starting remarks along the lines of 'Say what you like about Thatcher, but...'

Try "I thought Thatcher was the worse politician in history but ..."

HTH

[O'Kelly Isley III]

2 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

It's not in dispute that Thatcher frequently had to be reined in by some more temperate heads in her cabinet, but I don't think the pertinent thing here is really whether Thatcher was a big a c**t as the current HS or whether even she'd be appalled by some of the rhetoric, more that there are no temperate, moderating voices in the Parliamentary Tory party any longer, because anyone remotely sane saw the writing on the wall during the Brexit fiasco under May, and Johnson crawling out of the woodwork, and ran a fucking mile.

Never thought I'd see the day when I thought Parliament was worse off for seeing the back of a load of Tories, but if the party still actually had folk like Ken Clarke, Anna Soubry, David Gauke etc in positions of influence then we perhaps wouldn't be witnessing Government by a cartel of self-enriching criminal incompetents. Brexit emboldened the lunatics, the electorate handed the keys to Johnson, Johnson handed the party to the lunatics, and here we are. People make jokes about there being no such thing as a "decent" Tory, and there certainly isn't any more, but not so long ago there were a few Tory MP's with some sort of sense of decency and an understanding that governance is a covenant with the electorate which requires some minimum standards of behaviour, accountability, integrity etc

Johnson possesses none of these attributes as a person, so it's no wonder to me that they have also vanished from Government since 2019, or that the people he has left behind are similarly bereft of any sort of sense of decency or shame. Nobody with any integrity would have entertained him as party leader or PM, so it follows that what we're left with is the absolute worst of the Tory party, emboldened by the fact that there is no longer any internal barrier to them indulging the worst aspects of themselves.

I'm not contending for one moment that May's government, or any which preceded it, were bastions of honesty and integrity, but everything is relative, and by comparison with the current bunch of shithouses they all look comparatively benign and somewhat competent.

As an aside - don't you think that if Margaret Thatcher, while sitting as Prime Minister, had been fined by the Police for committing an offence, or indeed, had her Chancellor, it would have been an instantaneous resigning matter due to their position becoming completely untenable. MP's/Cabinet members used to get sacked/resign once upon a time, because even the Thatcher mob understood that thing about bare minimum standards. Not only was our last but one PM fined by the Police while in office, but the current PM was also fined while serving as Chancellor, and yet this is not apparently any impediment whatsoever to his suitability for the biggest job. Thatcher had plenty of cabinet resignations and sackings of her own to contend with, many of them for just as questionable behaviours as we see nowadays, but the point is those behaviours had consequences, whereas now the offenders tell us it's time to "move on" and it's all quickly forgotten about. 

Fair enough points but who is primarily responsible for this current state of affairs ?  Not the venal politicians, the party machines or the biased immoral media, it's our old friends The Great British Public.

And that links in to 1979 and the coming to office of Thatcher.  Her mantra that 'there is no such thing as society' accompanied by the removal of a host of financial checks and balances and the selling off of public assets sparked a Klondike of corporate and individual greed which is now embedded throughout British society.  And with something of a moral collapse

We tend to snigger here at Trump's claim that he could shoot someone dead on 5th Avenue and his public would still adore him; there's an argument that could be made that Johnson, Hancock, Cummings et al exhibited the same contempt throughout the COVID debacle.

No, Thatcher and her Governments weren't in some way more upstanding than what we have now, they were the handmaidens of what has followed.  And they succeeded because they appealed to the base instincts of human nature; I worked alongside a few staunch trade unionists who couldn't buy their discounted council house or privatised utility shares quickly enough.

The biggest worry of all is that there are still sufficient idiotic, greedy, bigoted and racist b*****ds, in England especially, to return the Tories to power at the next election.  And the Scottish electorate needs to think hard about that.

[Boo Khaki]

16 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

The biggest worry of all is that there are still sufficient idiotic, greedy, bigoted and racist b*****ds, in England especially, to return the Tories to power at the next election.  And the Scottish electorate needs to think hard about that.

One thing I clearly remember about the conversations I was having with undecideds and soft "NO"s prior to the 2014 referendum was that I made a point of reminding them that "No" wasn't simply a rejection of the SNP, Nationalism, Holyrood, Independence, whatever, it was also an endorsement of Westminster, Toryism, disdain for anything north of Watford, and that to think of it in the context of "Whatever they come up with next down there, whatever follows, and all the stuff that has come before, I'm saying YES!!! I WANT A LOAD MORE OF THAT!!! GIMME IT!!". 

I do not accept that Brexit, Boris Johnson, Farage, the "debate" over immigration, a Tory lurch to the right, economic chaos, and so on, was completely unforeseeable in 2014, which I often hear from No voters when I ask them if they are still content with their decision, because the Brexit referendum was always on the cards as long as Cameron was PM, Johnson was already a known quantity at that point, the Tories have always had a swivel-eyed euro-hating loon component, and Farage was agitating for the shitstorm we've gone through since 2016 for years prior to 2014. So for as much as I agree with you about the Scots electorate needing to have a wee think, that exact point was being made by plenty of us prior to 2014, and yet still 55% of the Scots electorate shat their breeks and endorsed more Toryism, and yet more Westminster-induced calamity.

I don't really have any genuine belief it would be any different the next time around. A lot of folk are just far too craven and pathetic to perceive of anything better than what they know and are used to, even when they're essentially in the political equivalent of an abusive relationship. You have to wonder what convinced so many Scots that we're so unique among small european nations that we'd be wholly incapable of governing ourselves. I can take a good stab at that, because I went through school in the Thatcher era and can well remember how the curriculum started and ended with everything "UK" and totally disregarded Scotland.

[KirkieRR]

1 hour ago, Fullerene said:

Try "I thought Thatcher was the worse politician in history but ..."

HTH

Aye. Have used that too.