Kelty Hearts Thread

[Salvo Montalbano]

3 hours ago, GordonS said:

For me, there are two factors in drawing the line: professionalism and crowd numbers. If it's your livelihood you deserve a good standard of medical care

I get the point you're making there but where do you draw the line? Reserve players are also professionals and I've been at one such game (at Kelty ironically, but it was Dunfermline reserves) where a game was abandoned due to serious injury (an ambulance was called and it arrived about 45 minutes later). So should a doctor be available for these games? I don't think anyone would suggest that is possible even if it would be good to have in an ideal world.

[Skyline Drifter]

14 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

I get the point you're making there but where do you draw the line? Reserve players are also professionals and I've been at one such game (at Kelty ironically, but it was Dunfermline reserves) where a game was abandoned due to serious injury (an ambulance was called and it arrived about 45 minutes later). So should a doctor be available for these games? I don't think anyone would suggest that is possible even if it would be good to have in an ideal world.

That's also a fair point. There's no requirement for a Doctor at Reserve matches and yet often the same players may be playing, they are open to the public usually, etc.

An official SPFL reserve match requires a proper Physio with Pitchside Trauma qualifications though, rather than just bog standard First aiders.

[EdinburghBlue]

The SFA’s licensing requirement is for a club doctor for treating players. I can’t see anything there about having to have a doctor for issues arising among the spectators, though I agree it's reasonable to have some sort of medical protection on site for LARGE crowds. (Does the 3000 figure for crowd doctor arise from local authority ground licensing?)

To be honest given crowd sizes for many semi-professional clubs in Scotland (numbers reported in the press as well as the actual attendances) if you argue the need for a doctor in attendance then there are probably many areas elsewhere in the locality that would arguably have more need for this on a Saturday afternoon (e.g. the local supermarkets).

Of course it's reasonable that there's someone present at all Pyramid games with some first aid training who can deal immediately with injuries and advise if a player needs to be transported to hospital/ambulance called. I think there is agreement between us that given the large shortages of doctors, having them at sparsely-attended football matches rather than in hospitals/surgeries makes no sense from a societal perspective.

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

A few bits and pieces from this:

• It's already a requirement to have a separate Crowd Doctor if the expected attendance at a football match exceeds 3,000. If it's below that the Club Doctor is accepted as covering both roles. I don't think that's unreasonable.
• Rangers were very obviously in Tier 4 not so long ago. Livingston and Morton were too. I think Livi were full time but not certain and can't recall if Morton were or not. Perhaps not. We were possibly three points from it this season................
• For clarity, it's not per se just a GP who covers this point off. The Club Doctor, which needn't necessarily be a GP of course, also has to have done (and passed) an SFA approved course in Pitchside Trauma and Resusitation within the last 3 years. These guys are specifically trained to deal with sporting injury so I disagree with you there. I'd much rather have one of them than a Paramedic, especially if that paramedic takes half an hour to get there in an ambulance!

Thanks. That raises another major problem for clubs - how many doctors are doing that course? Presumably club doctors will want the club to pay them to do it. It further reduces the pool they can draw from.

When I said I'd rather have a paramedic than a GP I didn't just mean calling an ambulance, I meant having one present! They have all the training required and they regularly get to use it. Through friends I know enough about medicine to know there's a difference between doing a course and having regular experience.

I think it would be reasonable to have a range of criteria rather than one line as they have now. Something like you need a suitably qualified person present if you are have players that are full time, you reasonably expect more than x in attendance or you are tier 3 or above.

[GordonS]

16 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

That's also a fair point. There's no requirement for a Doctor at Reserve matches and yet often the same players may be playing, they are open to the public usually, etc.

An official SPFL reserve match requires a proper Physio with Pitchside Trauma qualifications though, rather than just bog standard First aiders.

Reserve league matches should be considered as extensions of training IMO, and it's enough to have a suitably qualified physio. B team matches in competitive set-ups is a different thing.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 minute ago, GordonS said:

Thanks. That raises another major problem for clubs - how many doctors are doing that course? Presumably club doctors will want the club to pay them to do it. It further reduces the pool they can draw from.

When I said I'd rather have a paramedic than a GP I didn't just mean calling an ambulance, I meant having one present! They have all the training required and they regularly get to use it. Through friends I know enough about medicine to know there's a difference between doing a course and having regular experience.

I think it would be reasonable to have a range of criteria rather than one line as they have now. Something like you need a suitably qualified person present if you are have players that are full time, you reasonably expect more than x in attendance or you are tier 3 or above.

The Pitchside Trauma course is another real problem. It's not only expensive but there's also a huge waiting list for it of up to a year.

You are allowed to use a paramedic instead of a Doctor in individual cases where the Club Doctor is unavailable and you can't source a Doctor to replace. However, it's not allowed to have a paramedic as a permanent holder of the position.

[HibeeJibee]

3 hours ago, GordonS said:

That said, I'm not convinced a GP adds all that much. If I had a heart attack or a broken leg I'd much rather have a paramedic around than one of the GPs from our practice. Few GPs have much experience in accident and emergency, the kind of thing they'd be called on for match days. Someone must have done some work on this somewhere.

 

7 minutes ago, GordonS said:

When I said I'd rather have a paramedic than a GP I didn't just mean calling an ambulance, I meant having one present! They have all the training required and they regularly get to use it. Through friends I know enough about medicine to know there's a difference between doing a course and having regular experience. I think it would be reasonable to have a range of criteria rather than one line as they have now. Something like you need a suitably qualified person present if you are have players that are full time, you reasonably expect more than x in attendance or you are tier 3 or above.

 

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

• For clarity, it's not per se just a GP who covers this point off. The Club Doctor, which needn't necessarily be a GP of course, also has to have done (and passed) an SFA approved course in Pitchside Trauma and Resusitation within the last 3 years. These guys are specifically trained to deal with sporting injury so I disagree with you there. I'd much rather have one of them than a Paramedic, especially if that paramedic takes half an hour to get there in an ambulance!

Nonetheless there's a club with 2 qualified paramedics attending their games (physio and a committee member) who aren't considered compliant by the SFA criteria*; ditto a senior A&E nurse; presumably other active (non-doctor) medical professionals working in this type of care aren't. Meanwhile you hear about clubs approaching doctors who are "still practicing" but in areas ostensibly far less relevant - stories about NHS admins, surgeons, even gynaecologists or pathologists?! They're doctors and can undertake PTR refresher, so that's fine... what seems confusing is why the non-doctors aren't.

*they can stand in "exceptionally" should the doctor be unavailable - although apparently by the letter of the rules, they ought to have tried to find another doctor to stand in first, but failed!

 

23 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

That's also a fair point. There's no requirement for a Doctor at Reserve matches and yet often the same players may be playing, they are open to the public usually, etc.

Indeed.

Edited May 17 by HibeeJibee

[EdinburghBlue]

12 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

The Pitchside Trauma course is another real problem. It's not only expensive but there's also a huge waiting list for it of up to a year.

You are allowed to use a paramedic instead of a Doctor in individual cases where the Club Doctor is unavailable and you can't source a Doctor to replace. However, it's not allowed to have a paramedic as a permanent holder of the position.

I have argued elsewhere the more general point about the cost of running semi-professional teams in Scotland, and the related needs for a (slightly) fairer spreading of the sponsorship money and the SFA to reduce/get rid of some of these costs. There are some clubs whose accounts suggest that they are reasonably well run financially (I would include Queen of the South and Stenhousemuir here), some that are fairly consistently losing upwards of £100k per annum (with ironically the only season when this wasn't happening recently was the Covid-19 one), and some that are technically insolvent (and frankly shouldn't be in the SPFL if this continues year-on-year).

[HibeeJibee]

16 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Of course it's reasonable that there's someone present at all Pyramid games with some first aid training who can deal immediately with injuries and advise if a player needs to be transported to hospital/ambulance called. I think there is agreement between us that given the large shortages of doctors, having them at sparsely-attended football matches rather than in hospitals/surgeries makes no sense from a societal perspective.

Certainly there predictions SFA will have to widen eligibility in X years time as SPFL1&2 clubs will start to struggle - indeed some clearly have this year. They've already relaxed criteria from its original form by saying both doctors needn't be present - finding GPs up for away travel, not just attending home games, seemingly proving troublesome.

(Of course this creates a barrier for HL & LL clubs wanting it all in place ahead of a promotion: with few opponents having doctors, their own must attend home & away to comply with Bronze... then upon promotion, can stop travelling!).

[Skyline Drifter]

1 minute ago, HibeeJibee said:

Certainly there predictions SFA will have to widen eligibility in X years time as SPFL1&2 clubs will start to struggle - indeed some clearly have this year. They've already relaxed criteria from its original form by saying both doctors needn't be present - finding GPs up for away travel, not just attending home games, seemingly proving troublesome.

(Of course this creates a barrier for HL & LL clubs wanting it all in place ahead of a promotion: with few opponents having doctors, their own must attend home & away to comply with Bronze... then upon promotion, can stop travelling!).

Yes, this IS a nonsense which I hadn't really considered until someone from Cowdenbeath mentioned it on here. We wouldn't be Bronze if we were in the Lowland League because our Doctor doesn't go to away games. Very few clubs outside the Premiership will have a Doctor travel to away games unless he also happens to be a Director or something like that.

[HibeeJibee]

8 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Yes, this IS a nonsense which I hadn't really considered until someone from Cowdenbeath mentioned it on here. We wouldn't be Bronze if we were in the Lowland League because our Doctor doesn't go to away games. Very few clubs outside the Premiership will have a Doctor travel to away games unless he also happens to be a Director or something like that.

Which in turn leads to the absurdity of tier 5 clubs who could obtain a doctor, any doctor... who lets recall the criteria regard as better than an active paramedic/etc... for their homes games not bothering; thus leaving them uncovered when they otherwise might have been. Whether or not we should rank any doctor over a paramedic - we would surely rank either over having nobody!

[Kelheart]

Do witch doctors count though as probably better than half that are practicing at the moment  that's the question

Anyway that's the teams settled for league one next season and it's going to be a belter 

[Otis Blue]

On 19/05/2024 at 10:23, Kelheart said:

Do witch doctors count though as probably better than half that are practicing at the moment  that's the question

Anyway that's the teams settled for league one next season and it's going to be a belter 

Agree ... a much more even landscape on the face of it.  Arbroath or ICT probably favourites just now, although we'll need to see what the fallout from the financial problems at Inverness are.  I'll reserve my judgement on Queens prospects until we start to see what the signed squad looks like.

[Kelheart]

9 hours ago, Otis Blue said:

Agree ... a much more even landscape on the face of it.  Arbroath or ICT probably favourites just now, although we'll need to see what the fallout from the financial problems at Inverness are.  I'll reserve my judgement on Queens prospects until we start to see what the signed squad looks like.

I was hoping you gave Bartley another season neeb , don't think we will get our obligatory 10 points from you guys this season coming joking aside it is going to be a tough one and I just hope we recruit well again this season as there's not going to be an EC this season hopefully so all teams will have to be on it from the get go , don't know why but thinking Alloa might be the surprise package and top the league , Stenny and Dumbarton will look to improve what they already have , Arbroath and ICT will be looking for a quick return to championship and the rest of us know it's a slog to get anything from any team in this league , I'm actually buzzing for it all to start again 

[Kelheart]

So ICT coming to Kelty to train , should get some decent cash in for that , hopefully used to get a decent signing or 2 for the season ahead , only down side is they can now maybe attract some players Tids may have been looking at to full time football (Lyon etc ) instead of PT with us 

[Skyline Drifter]

16 minutes ago, Kelheart said:

So ICT coming to Kelty to train , should get some decent cash in for that , hopefully used to get a decent signing or 2 for the season ahead , only down side is they can now maybe attract some players Tids may have been looking at to full time football (Lyon etc ) instead of PT with us 

Well that and the fact your pitch will wear out much more quickly now. What will I assume be 4 days a week, 3 or 4 hours a day and 45 weeks or so a season is a massive extra usage and will shorten lifespan by a few years.

[LeodhasXD]

Also thought the pitch booking was something to do with Fife Council? So along the lines of they'd take a fair cut of the money?

Edited May 24 by LeodhasXD

[Kelheart]

20 minutes ago, LeodhasXD said:

Also thought the pitch booking was something to do with Fife Council? So along the lines of they'd take a fair cut of the money?

Probably correct neeb but then it's up to Council to relay pitch when needing it I'd suppose as well , Kelty will get some financial gain id expect , just can't believe ICT are actually doing it to be fair 

[cowdenbeath]

2 hours ago, Kelheart said:

Probably correct neeb but then it's up to Council to relay pitch when needing it I'd suppose as well , Kelty will get some financial gain id expect , just can't believe ICT are actually doing it to be fair 

How does it work out hiring it to iCT, I presume you have a long term lease from the council then sub let to ICT?

[Kelheart]

1 minute ago, cowdenbeath said:

How does it work out hiring it to iCT, I presume you have a long term lease from the council then sub let to ICT?

Think we have a 99 year lease or something along those lines but for use with all the community clubs as well , don't know how the ICT thing has been put together yet