Time to go Steve Clarke

[JamesM82]

3 hours ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

I dread to think what one of Fergie’s boys the SFA would dig up to replace Clarke if they punted him.

Is it McLeish or Strachan’s turn again? Or maybe try McGhee this time.

TBF they actually came up with an "outside the box" appointment for the women's team recently, having take absolutely ages (> 6 months) in the process.

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Real problem I have with Clarke is that he couldn't secure a win in Slovakia or Israel that would have near enough guaranteed us a world cup play off spot.

That failure is more relevant than his ability to win a couple of penalty shoot outs.

We finished 2nd in group where we were seeded 2nd. Obviously it was hugely disappointing to lose out, and we should have won at least one of those games, but we were only in that position in the first place because we put ourselves in it. If we'd got the exact same 6 results but in a different order then it wouldn't be considered a failure of any sort.

There's a complete lack of perspective about where we actually were as a footballing nation when that Nations League group kicked off - I don't think many people on here would have expected us to win the group. In fact, I feel like I remember being shot down for suggesting that I thought it was winnable. Yet after the fact it's suddenly a huge failure, and I even saw someone else laughably describing it as "blowing the chance that McLeish gave us to qualify for the World Cup playoffs".

Edited July 29, 2021 by craigkillie

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

16 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

We finished 2nd in group where we were seeded 2nd. Obviously it was hugely disappointing to lose out, and we should have won at least one of those games, but we were only in that position in the first place because we put ourselves in it. If we'd got the exact same 6 results but in a different order then it wouldn't be considered a failure of any sort.

There's a complete lack of perspective about where we actually were as a footballing nation when that Nations League group kicked off - I don't think many people on here would have expected us to win the group. In fact, I feel like I remember being shot down for suggesting that I thought it was winnable. Yet after the fact it's suddenly a huge failure, and I even saw someone else laughably describing it as "blowing the chance that McLeish gave us to qualify for the World Cup playoffs".

I get that you’re a Steve Clarke simp but I’d say it was definitely a failure given we took one point off Israel and got beaten by Slovakia as well who finished rock bottom. The points tally we achieved only  looked good because we were lucky enough to play against a Covid-ravaged Czech second string (who were actually arguably still the better team that day). 

People making comments like ‘aw but he took us to our first tournament in x number of years’. Yes that’s true, and it should be commended, however it’s misleading to compare this record to past managers like Strachan who didn’t have the Nations League opportunity. Steve Clarke will have us finishing in third in our World Cup group which doesn’t really signal much in the way of progress to me given that in the 2018 group we also finished third.

[craigkillie]

I didn't make any of the arguments which you've countered against about points tallies or about us qualifying for a tournament. I just don't see performing to our seeding at that point as a failure, particularly given the low we had been at little more than a year previously and the fact we were bedding in a new system. I'd see it as a missed opportunity - a failure in that group would have been getting relegated.

It would be a bit like a newly promoted Premiership side missing out on the top six after being in a good position but losing their last three or four games before the split. You've thrown away an opportunity, but in the bigger scheme of things you've done fairly well to be there in the first place. However, to continue that comparison, we're now at the point where we've consolidated ourselves as comfortable at that level and should be looking to push on.

Performing to our seeding in qualifying should be the absolute bare minimum now, and if we do that without being competitive with the team above us then it would be time to look at a new manager. That means for World Cup qualifying we should be finishing 2nd, or at least within a point or two, in the next Nations League we should be looking to win our group or a very narrow second, and by the Euros qualifying we absolutely should be finishing in the top 2 and qualifying.

[JamesM82]

1 hour ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

I get that you’re a Steve Clarke simp but I’d say it was definitely a failure given we took one point off Israel and got beaten by Slovakia as well who finished rock bottom. The points tally we achieved only  looked good because we were lucky enough to play against a Covid-ravaged Czech second string (who were actually arguably still the better team that day). 

People making comments like ‘aw but he took us to our first tournament in x number of years’. Yes that’s true, and it should be commended, however it’s misleading to compare this record to past managers like Strachan who didn’t have the Nations League opportunity. Steve Clarke will have us finishing in third in our World Cup group which doesn’t really signal much in the way of progress to me given that in the 2018 group we also finished third.

the Nations League route for Euro 2020 was just a replacement for having third place teams in regular qualifying go into the playoffs for Euro 2016, so it kind of is comparable. We missed out on that because we only finished fourth in the Euro 2016 group (behind Germany, Poland and Ireland). There were 24 teams at Euro 2016 and we didn't qualify, there were 24 at Euro 2020 and we did.

[craigkillie]

48 minutes ago, JamesM82 said:

the Nations League route for Euro 2020 was just a replacement for having third place teams in regular qualifying go into the playoffs for Euro 2016, so it kind of is comparable. We missed out on that because we only finished fourth in the Euro 2016 group (behind Germany, Poland and Ireland). There were 24 teams at Euro 2016 and we didn't qualify, there were 24 at Euro 2020 and we did.

As a counterpoint, it's worth pointing out that we were seeded 4th in that Euro 2016 group and objectively got a very tough draw (with all 3 ultimately reaching the last 16), and we did then finish 3rd in WC qualifying under Strachan.

[The Moonster]

2 hours ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

I get that you’re a Steve Clarke simp but I’d say it was definitely a failure given we took one point off Israel and got beaten by Slovakia as well who finished rock bottom. The points tally we achieved only  looked good because we were lucky enough to play against a Covid-ravaged Czech second string (who were actually arguably still the better team that day). 

People making comments like ‘aw but he took us to our first tournament in x number of years’. Yes that’s true, and it should be commended, however it’s misleading to compare this record to past managers like Strachan who didn’t have the Nations League opportunity. Steve Clarke will have us finishing in third in our World Cup group which doesn’t really signal much in the way of progress to me given that in the 2018 group we also finished third.

We beat a non-covid-ravaged Czech side at home as well so I'm not sure how much luck was involved there. 

People have clearly made up their minds on Clarke, I think he's worth giving at least as much time as Strachan got and I expect him to get at least this World Cup campaign before we start thinking about emptying him. It's not that misleading to compare them, Strachan lost games in Slovakia, Georgia and funnily enough Serbia, and embarrassingly conceded Gibraltars first ever competitive goal at home, there's nothing to suggest he'd have seen us through that game, or the ones prior to it and he failed in every qualifying campaign. 

[ceudmilefailte]

2 hours ago, The Moonster said:

We beat a non-covid-ravaged Czech side at home as well so I'm not sure how much luck was involved there. 

People have clearly made up their minds on Clarke, I think he's worth giving at least as much time as Strachan got and I expect him to get at least this World Cup campaign before we start thinking about emptying him. It's not that misleading to compare them, Strachan lost games in Slovakia, Georgia and funnily enough Serbia, and embarrassingly conceded Gibraltars first ever competitive goal at home, there's nothing to suggest he'd have seen us through that game, or the ones prior to it and he failed in every qualifying campaign. 

Strachan was picking players from the SPFL and Championship.

Stick Hickey in at right back and Clarke could avoid both divisions bar a keeper

[Bing.McCrosby]

12 hours ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Strachan was picking players from the SPFL and Championship.

Stick Hickey in at right back and Clarke could avoid both divisions bar a keeper

Its certainly a fair point, Clarke has better players than Strachan had.

And he has them playing worse football.

With a bit of imagination we could do better than both.

[2426255]

The consensus from this thread shows the majority want Steve Clarke to stay and see how we get on in the World Cup Qualifiers. I'd say case closed for the moment. 

[Bing.McCrosby]

Or anyone can continue to post their opinions on here if they so desire.

[Gordopolis]

Yeah, the thread title sounds quite sensationalist at first glance, but the scrutiny of SC's effectiveness is valid and - provided it is carried out in a balanced way - healthy.

I'm solidly in favour of him staying in charge for the foreseeable, but no manager should be bullet proof.

[2426255]

This thread was a waste of time. Obviously it was just a knee jerk reaction to a disappointment rooted in unrealistic expectations. I'm glad the right answer has been reached finally.

[Bing.McCrosby]

11 hours ago, 2426255 said:

This thread was a waste of time. Obviously it was just a knee jerk reaction to a disappointment rooted in unrealistic expectations. I'm glad the right answer has been reached finally.

Over the last 16 pages there's been quite a wide range of views.

Everyones ideas of realistic expectations is different so its entirely personal.

For me its not unrealistic to expect to take more than zero points from two home matches. And the czech performance in particular was disappointing. Also its fairly well agreed that the team selection was not perfect. The style of play was also not great either.

Some people want Steve Clarke to stay despite agreeing with some or all of this, because they think he can improve things.

I hope he can, but I doubt he will.

[Monkey Tennis]

On 02/08/2021 at 07:04, 2426255 said:

This thread was a waste of time. Obviously it was just a knee jerk reaction to a disappointment rooted in unrealistic expectations. I'm glad the right answer has been reached finally.

Absolute bollocks.

Questioning Clarke's performance in the role is perfectly legitimate.  

I'd be in favour of him remaining in his post and I don't think there's currently huge pressure in the opposite direction.  However, scrutinising his record and not being entirely impressed is not just valid - it's pretty irresistible.   That has nothing whatever to do with knee jerk reactions or unrealistic expectations. 

The debate isn't finished or pointless simply because you deem it so I'm afraid.  

[2426255]

8 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

not being entirely impressed is not just valid - it's pretty irresistible.   That has nothing whatever to do with knee jerk reactions or unrealistic expectations. 

It's pretty irresistible that you weren't entirely impressed?  such bold statement. 

[Monkey Tennis]

3 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

It's pretty irresistible that you weren't entirely impressed?  such bold statement. 

What 'point' are you attempting to make here?

[2426255]

I was just highlighting your wishy washy comment

[Monkey Tennis]

8 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

I was just highlighting your wishy washy comment

Ok.

That's weird because saying a particular sentiment is irresistible isn't wishy washy at all.  In fact, it's pretty unequivocal.

Don't worry about it though.

[2426255]

10 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Ok.

That's weird because saying a particular sentiment is irresistible isn't wishy washy at all.  In fact, it's pretty unequivocal.

Don't worry about it though.

only pretty unequivocal? not just unequivocal?