gaz5 Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 No, the court seeks to establish guilt. Sometimes it will proclaim people are innocent, but not usually and certainly not as a matter of default. You're guilty or not guilty (or not proven in Scotland). There is no innocent verdict. And the court is seeking to establish if the accused is guilty not if they are innocent (hence why the burden of proof lies with the state/prosecutors/crown/whatever). So you're just fucking wrong, not much more I can say on the subject.You missed out a rather key point in your argument.Courts don't seek to prove innocence, because they presume it as a matter of course. Every person who enters a court is presumed innocent with the burden of proof on the prosecutor to prove guilt.Innocent until proven guilty, not innocent until proven innocent or guilty.Not being able to prove guilt != proving innocence, it means an inability to prove guilt. In some cases that protects the wrongfully accused, in others it protects the guilty. That's the nuance of the law and it's why cases can be retried if significant new evidence comes to light later. There are numerous high profile cases of "not guilty" people walking free from court who were, clearly, not innocent.That aside, the court of public opinion also != a court of law, where far more rigorous standards apply. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satoshi Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 31 minutes ago, gaz5 said: You missed out a rather key point in your argument. Courts don't seek to prove innocence, because they presume it as a matter of course. Every person who enters a court is presumed innocent with the burden of proof on the prosecutor to prove guilt. Innocent until proven guilty, not innocent until proven innocent or guilty. Not being able to prove guilt != proving innocence, it means an inability to prove guilt. In some cases that protects the wrongfully accused, in others it protects the guilty. That's the nuance of the law and it's why cases can be retried if significant new evidence comes to light later. There are numerous high profile cases of "not guilty" people walking free from court who were, clearly, not innocent. That aside, the court of public opinion also != a court of law, where far more rigorous standards apply. Don't disagree with any of that, I even emphasized that the burden of proof lay with the prosectuor. And yes, this forum is not a court of law, and you absolutely can (and should) call out scumbag behaviour like that demonstrated by Giggs and Greenwood (and Saville, and Pablo Escobar and Harvey Weinstein and whomever). Don't discuss until the court case is finished is a crap argument, rightfully dismantled. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaz5 Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Don't disagree with any of that, I even emphasized that the burden of proof lay with the prosectuor. And yes, this forum is not a court of law, and you absolutely can (and should) call out scumbag behaviour like that demonstrated by Giggs and Greenwood (and Saville, and Pablo Escobar and Harvey Weinstein and whomever). Don't discuss until the court case is finished is a crap argument, rightfully dismantled.Yup, I agree, the evidence already in the public domain allows us, non legal system folks, to form a reasonable opinion based on balance of probabilities.And at the moment, that balance of probabilities is that an entitled, arrogant and violent young man has, most likely not for the first time based on that evidence, physically abused, at absolute best (but likely more than that), a young woman.Virtue signalling aside, I feel quite comfortable in condemning in absolute terms what we've seen and heard and hoping that both his career is over and, as a father of a young daughter, they throw away the key.This doesn't make me stupid, or "into the drama" as has been suggested. Just a rational response IMO to what we already know (there's not a lot of dubiety here) by a normal human being. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
senorsoupe Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Happy Peter Odemwingie day everyone! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Stiles Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Peter's started something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derry Alli Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Imagine rocking up to sign fir one of the greatest clubs in world football dressed like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorongil Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 2 hours ago, Satoshi said: Don't disagree with any of that, I even emphasized that the burden of proof lay with the prosectuor. And yes, this forum is not a court of law, and you absolutely can (and should) call out scumbag behaviour like that demonstrated by Giggs and Greenwood (and Saville, and Pablo Escobar and Harvey Weinstein and whomever). Don't discuss until the court case is finished is a crap argument, rightfully dismantled. Nobody asserted the argument that it shouldn’t be discussed until there is a court outcome. Nobody. I did assert the view that armchair news consumers declaring his absolute guilt prior to the police investigations and wishing rape in prison upon the guy was just a little premature. Is that really such an unreasonable view? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorongil Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 3 hours ago, Satoshi said: No, the court seeks to establish guilt. Sometimes it will proclaim people are innocent, but not usually and certainly not as a matter of default. You're guilty or not guilty (or not proven in Scotland). There is no innocent verdict. And the court is seeking to establish if the accused is guilty not if they are innocent (hence why the burden of proof lies with the state/prosecutors/crown/whatever). So you're just fucking wrong, not much more I can say on the subject. I don’t think you understand what you are saying. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Nice to see Eriksen back. I am slightly intrigued to see which player will be the first to remorselessly send him ten feet in the air - I’m going for big Grant Hanley. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Burnley selling Chris Wood to Newcastle for £25m and then replacing him with Wout Weghorst for £12m is very good business. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satoshi Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Thorongil said: Nobody asserted the argument that it shouldn’t be discussed until there is a court outcome. Nobody. I did assert the view that armchair news consumers declaring his absolute guilt prior to the police investigations and wishing rape in prison upon the guy was just a little premature. Is that really such an unreasonable view? Lies, you were posting pish about the evidence being faked long before anyone mentioned prison rape (which incidentally was one person). And nobody has claimed 'absolute guilt' prior to the police investigation. You have 100% made this up because you are in a hole of defending abhorrent behaviour. Seriously check it. Nobody mentioned the words absolute guilt but you - it's a total fabrication. What you have posted above isn't an unreasonable view (just a bit weird to stick up for the accused in such a case) but what you posted previously absolutely is, and you have been rightly called out on it. Maybe you have learned hence your contrition but I doubt it, you don't like powerful men (or any men maybe) being accused of sexual assault and domestic violence and will always leap to their defence. Something you have to deal with I guess. 2 hours ago, Thorongil said: I don’t think you understand what you are saying. Third time trying this tactic - I can't deal with it so I'll ignore it. It's painfully transparent. You really can't think you're fooling anyone, right? Additionally, on Greenwood he was named as the worlds most valuable player not that long ago (in terms of transmarket value not performance). This was a massive stretch, Pedri is both younger and a far better player than Greenwood ever was (or ever would be). He won't be appearing on such lists ever again. Good. Edit: You were exactly the kind of person backing up Harvey Weinstein when multiple women accused him (or Bill Cosby for that matter). I hope you understood why your pish has to be called out - people like you are part of the problem. You are enablers and victim blamers - wait until the verdict is a rubbish smoksecreen for such behaviour. Edited January 31, 2022 by Satoshi -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Great signing for Tanguy Ndombele, will be interesting to see how Lyon gets on. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 This is a very Everton signing, isn't it? Average EPL player that has 8-10 good games a season and the the club will wonder why it still ends up finishing between 9th-13th. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 1 minute ago, Michael W said: This is a very Everton signing, isn't it? Average EPL player that has 8-10 good games a season and the the club will wonder why it still ends up finishing between 9th-13th. But Frank Lampard is in charge now, he's sure to take Everton places that Carlo Ancelotti and Rafa Benitez couldn't, right? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derry Alli Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 15 minutes ago, Michael W said: Average EPL player that has 8-10 good games a season Think that's a tad harsh. If he gets his shit together it's a very good signing. Also a big if, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamamafegan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 This is a very Everton signing, isn't it? Average EPL player that has 8-10 good games a season and the the club will wonder why it still ends up finishing between 9th-13th. Don’t think that’s a bad signing tbh. He was at one stage class for spurs but he’s lost his way a bit. Could be what both he and Everton need right now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 9 minutes ago, jamamafegan said: Don’t think that’s a bad signing tbh. He was at one stage class for spurs but he’s lost his way a bit. Could be what both he and Everton need right now. 49 minutes ago, Mr. Alli said: Think that's a tad harsh. If he gets his shit together it's a very good signing. Also a big if, though. Think it is a very big 'if'. He hasn't really done much, let alone do it on a consistent basis for a couple of seasons now. At £40m (according to Sky Sports) I think it's a very big risk. Could well be wrong and he'll recapture form of a few years ago, but it looks well overpriced. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Stiles Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 And so it begins... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derry Alli Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 8 minutes ago, Michael W said: At £40m (according to Sky Sports) I think it's a very big risk. It's a free transfer. It'll only ever reach anywhere near £30m if he turns in excellent performances. If he's shit it'll cost them about £12m. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roman_bairn Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 And so it begins... Well, tbf, who in their right mind is going to buy one just now? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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