VAR in Scottish Football

[The Master]

16 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

It didn't work very well at Motherwell, for both sides.

It did. They were both onside. 

The lines are far more accurate than either the cut of the grass, or the naked eye. 

[KingswellsRed]

All my best memories of going to the football are celebrating goals, particularly away from home. Now, instead of enjoying the moment, my first thought is to watch the referee for any possible signs of VAR involvement. Football is in danger of completely forgetting what made it so popular in the first place.

[kingjoey]

9 minutes ago, The Master said:

It did. They were both onside. 

The lines are far more accurate than either the cut of the grass, or the naked eye. 

Aye, ok. 

[The Master]

Just now, kingjoey said:

Aye, ok. 

The lines showed both were onside.

Given the differences in perspective and angle, it’s impossible for both to have been wrong. 

Unless you’re trying to argue the calibration was changed mid-match?

[LIVIFOREVER]

7 minutes ago, KingswellsRed said:

All my best memories of going to the football are celebrating goals, particularly away from home. Now, instead of enjoying the moment, my first thought is to watch the referee for any possible signs of VAR involvement. Football is in danger of completely forgetting what made it so popular in the first place.

Aye remember when you used to just have a quick glance to the lino to see if his flag was up, then went full into celebrating a goal. 

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

9 minutes ago, The Master said:

The lines showed both were onside.

Given the differences in perspective and angle, it’s impossible for both to have been wrong. 

Unless you’re trying to argue the calibration was changed mid-match?

The calibration issue would be that the perspective is wrong and gives a bow shape to the line rather than that it is squint.

 

[The Master]

1 minute ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

The calibration issue would be that the perspective is wrong and gives a bow shape to the line rather than that it is squint.

 

The lines are only really for our benefit.

The actual determination uses the underlying mathematical model, which won’t be able to accommodate anything other than a (representation of a) straight line. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

57 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

I don't get much right, but I was spot on with this years ago when the concept of VAR was being suggested. Loads of decisions in every football match ever played fall into the 'could have gone either way' category. How much force is enough to make something a foul? At precisely what point did the passing player release the ball so we can judge the moment we have to measure offside? How clear does a clear goalscoring opportunity have to be to be a red card instead of a yellow?

There's so much of it. And the idea that people got was that this would do away with bad errors and (what most people hear) decisions they disagree with. But we are all biased and we all apply the judgement on whether than tackle has enough force to be a red and not a yellow based, basically, on who we support. The whole enterprise was doomed from the beginning, and anyone who took the time to stop and think about how the game works and how people watch it could have told you that. Many did.

If you thought that when VAR began, then fair enough.

If you thought it when VAR was introduced in Scotland after years of dreadful decisions happening on VAR's watch around the world, then you just weren't paying attention.

The insularity of Scottish football is a wonder to behold, but the number of people just ignoring the years of evidence we had from around the world that it was going to be exactly what we have seen in the last few months was laughable. Go back through this thread and this forum and you'll see plenty of people pointing it out before Scotland got VARed. It was always, always, always going to be this way, because it's like this everywhere they use VAR.

Pretty much this going by how many f**k ups i'm seeing now, and in other leagues too. My main concern going into this was how it would affect the enjoyment of the fans going to the games, having to wait for VAR reviewing goals, and taking away the spontaneity of wildly celebrating goals. However it's much, much worse than i thought it would be, with it missing incidents, and getting decisions wrong. 

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

2 minutes ago, The Master said:

The lines are only really for our benefit.

The actual determination uses the underlying mathematical model, which won’t be able to accommodate anything other than a (representation of a) straight line. 

Wait if the "model" knows where the lines are parallel to the goal  lines why can't the system draw those lines on the screens. Seems a rather absurd and unbelievable technical issue.

Trying to white knight VAR with "the computer can only draw straight lines" is a frankly a new low

[DukDukGoose]

Can't stand VAR, think it's terrible but can genuinely say I've never once looked to see if VAR is going to call off a goal before celebrating.

[The Master]

3 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

Wait if the "model" knows where the lines are parallel to the goal  lines why can't the system draw those lines on the screens. Seems a rather absurd and unbelievable technical issue.

It does. 

Essentially what happens is:

1. System is calibrated based on the goal line (I don’t know the technical intricacies, but as a mathematical principle all you need is to identify two points on the goal line - so for simplicity, we’ll just use “goal line” as the reference going forward).

2. The VAR pulls the still image corresponding to when they believe the ball left the passer’s foot/head/whatever.

3. They identify the points on the pitch corresponding to the furthest forward parts of the bodies of both the attacker and the defender.

4. The VAR system can then identify the lines parallel to the goal line that pass through those points.

5. That mathematical determination leads to the “Onside” or “Offside” call.

6. The actual lines we see are plotted as a visual aid to show why the above call was made.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

13 minutes ago, The Master said:

It does. 

Essentially what happens is:

1. System is calibrated based on the goal line (I don’t know the technical intricacies, but as a mathematical principle all you need is to identify two points on the goal line - so for simplicity, we’ll just use “goal line” as the reference going forward).

2. The VAR pulls the still image corresponding to when they believe the ball left the passer’s foot/head/whatever.

3. They identify the points on the pitch corresponding to the furthest forward parts of the bodies of both the attacker and the defender.

4. The VAR system can then identify the lines parallel to the goal line that pass through those points.

5. That mathematical determination leads to the “Onside” or “Offside” call.

6. The actual lines we see are plotted as a visual aid to show why the above call was made.

But what if the calibration is wrong and produces not straight lines?

[DA Baracus]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/65031181

Article mentions three other countries who are also unhappy with VAR.

[kingjoey]

1 hour ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

But what if the calibration is wrong and produces not straight lines?

Because the lines said that both goals at Fir Park on Saturday were onside, the only answer is that the calibration was wrong. 

[The Master]

1 hour ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

But what if the calibration is wrong and produces not straight lines?

At risk of living up to the pedant monicker, the calibration will only be able to create straight lines. 

It’s whether those lines are parallel to the goal line that’s a potential question. 

But the two decisions on Saturday couldn’t both be wrong without the calibration changing during the game. And the fact both were called the same (that is, both were called onside) supports the calibration being correct. 

[Dons_1988]

1 hour ago, Merkland Red said:

Can't stand VAR, think it's terrible but can genuinely say I've never once looked to see if VAR is going to call off a goal before celebrating.

Miovski disallowed goal in the semi. I didn’t react at all when it hit the net because I was waiting for the flag. I get they didn’t use VAR to decide it but the reason it wasn’t initially flagged was VAR. 

[Ginaro]

Can't believe I'm having to post this video again showing how the Hawkeye 3D offside system works. And one from Sky showing the crosshairs in action.

Anyone confidently saying that the Fir Park incidents look offside to the naked eye quite simply haven't watched enough football over the past few years where VAR offside lines have consistently shown camera angles not in line with the play to be misleading when it comes to judging offside. Or in this case, within the margin of error where the lines are touching.

 

[Ginaro]

On 20/03/2023 at 11:36, Paco said:

VAR itself is possibly to blame for what, three wrong decisions since it came in? All offsides, all at the same end at Fir Park. The Celtic one a few months ago is genuinely impossible to tell, but the two on Saturday looked offside to the naked eye. Maybe they weren’t, but it would be nice to have an indicator from the SFA about how confident they are - Brentford scored an offside goal against Arsenal a few weeks ago and the FA apologised with an explanation of why they got it wrong. Radio silence here. 

It’s certainly more simple to say ‘scrap VAR’ but the officials would still have had a fucking howler this weekend. The Motherwell-Rangers goals and red card were all on-field decisions, the officials missed the St Johnstone handball, Willie Collum gave Livingston a free kick when their keeper Schumacer’d Brophy, Craig Napier gave St Mirren a dreadful penalty decision, the ref at Celtic Park missed the obvious penalty to Hibs, awarded the extremely soft Celtic one and gave them one of the worst penalty decisions I’ve ever seen later on which was thankfully overturned by VAR.

All three of these Fir Park decisions that you mention were made by the on-field assistant referees, the VAR lines were drawn and they agreed with the AR so not sure how you can say they were wrong decisions. Brentford v Arsenal doesn't have any relevance to this situation as the VAR in that case forgot to draw the lines for a second phase of play.

As for Livi v Ross County, according to VAR Watch the free kick was given for offside so that decision was correct, obviously should've been a yellow at minimum though for the goalkeeper's challenge. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

2 hours ago, Merkland Red said:

Can't stand VAR, think it's terrible but can genuinely say I've never once looked to see if VAR is going to call off a goal before celebrating.

Yeah because it takes so long, you just get on with it then have that period of not knowing if VAR is giving it.

I've seen a game on tv where VAR disallowed 2 goals and when the team scored again the players barely celebrated and just stood about waiting to see if VAR was giving it before celebrating properly, by then the spontaneity is lost and the celebrations aren't as wild.

 

Hasn't happened in Scotland yet and i agree, i've celebrated goals normally, but then you still have to wait and see if the ref is going to give it after a VAR check, and have that dread in the pit of your stomach it's not being given. Then a wee cheer when it is. 

[RandomGuy.]

Is the issue with VAR and offside calls not that they can't guarantee they're actually getting the still of the exact moment the balls kicked?