VAR in Scottish Football

[DukDukGoose]

1 hour ago, Dons_1988 said:

Miovski disallowed goal in the semi. I didn’t react at all when it hit the net because I was waiting for the flag. I get they didn’t use VAR to decide it but the reason it wasn’t initially flagged was VAR. 

If I'm being honest, I expect every goal against the arse cheeks to get disallowed.

[Dundee Hibernian]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

Is the issue with VAR and offside calls not that they can't guarantee they're actually getting the still of the exact moment the balls kicked?

VAR is not sufficient to get offside calls right in many cases for that very reason.

But that's no excuse for failing to correctly determine red cards or penalties. 

[54_and_counting]

7 hours ago, DA Baracus said:

What do those who favour VAR believe is the issue and why do they believe VAR is the right 'tool' to solve it/them?

The issue is that someone still has to view an incident and therefore it is still someones opinion, 

And as this season has shown they will get things wrong 

However the amount of wrong decisions that have been corrected by VAR vastly outweighs the ones missed, therefore it should be classed as a decent success 

Not every decision VAR aided or not, in football will ever be correct, if VAR can lower the amount of wrong decisions then surely its beneficial

 

[VincentGuerin]

5 hours ago, 54_and_counting said:

However the amount of wrong decisions that have been corrected by VAR vastly outweighs the ones missed, therefore it should be classed as a decent success

Only if you are absolutely fine with loads of standing about at the fitba, the game being disrupted, ALL the chat being about VAR, and never being sure when a goal is going to stand.

Some folk (wronguns) will be fine with those things. But it's not reasonable to just say more decisions are correct, so VAR is a success. That's simplistic in the extreme.

[Dons_1988]

31 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

Only if you are absolutely fine with loads of standing about at the fitba, the game being disrupted, ALL the chat being about VAR, and never being sure when a goal is going to stand.

Some folk (wronguns) will be fine with those things. But it's not reasonable to just say more decisions are correct, so VAR is a success. That's simplistic in the extreme.

Yep. If you were doing a simple cost-benefit analysis then everything you describe is the cost to the fans. 

The benefit is the marginal increase in accuracy, until you measure that against the fact that people will give you much less leeway now that you have technology behind you. The expectation of accuracy rises more than actual accuracy. So that benefit is eroded immediately.

Then what are you left with? Scottish referees getting more opportunities within uefa? A very marginal commercial benefit for the Scottish game? f**k all, and certainly nothing that interests fans. 

[10menwent2mow]

6 hours ago, 54_and_counting said:

The issue is that someone still has to view an incident and therefore it is still someones opinion, 

And as this season has shown they will get things wrong 

However the amount of wrong decisions that have been corrected by VAR vastly outweighs the ones missed, therefore it should be classed as a decent success 

Not every decision VAR aided or not, in football will ever be correct, if VAR can lower the amount of wrong decisions then surely its beneficial

 

How many pens have we seen given that wouldn't even have been claimed for in the past. If a player has been fouled then great but it certainly feels like the huge increase in penalties since the introduction of Var has been due to every single handball in the box (apart from Consi on Saturday) being penalised with a pen. 

If var was being utilised for its original idea of 'correcting clear and obvious errors', then, again, great. However it's essentially being utilised to re-referee entire games and over analyse every goal scored to see if someone has committed a tiny offence to give a reason to rule it out. It's shite, it'll always be shite and it should be binned. 

[Blootoon87]

12 hours ago, Merkland Red said:

Can't stand VAR, think it's terrible but can genuinely say I've never once looked to see if VAR is going to call off a goal before celebrating.

Che Adams against Denmark for me. Was convinced he was off so didn't celebrate at all. The moment had passed by the time VAR did it's job.

[Pete the Jakey]

10 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Is the issue with VAR and offside calls not that they can't guarantee they're actually getting the still of the exact moment the balls kicked?

Yip bang on.  Depending when the lines are drawn (first contact with boot versus ball leaving boot) can make all the difference.  I would like to see extremely marginal calls like that given given a "not proven" or "inconclusive" decision and goals to stand. 

[54_and_counting]

1 hour ago, VincentGuerin said:

Only if you are absolutely fine with loads of standing about at the fitba, the game being disrupted, ALL the chat being about VAR, and never being sure when a goal is going to stand.

Some folk (wronguns) will be fine with those things. But it's not reasonable to just say more decisions are correct, so VAR is a success. That's simplistic in the extreme.

Wether its simplistic or not its the truth, yeah it can suck the life out of games waiting around but take the celtic v hibs game on sat for example, twice VAR had to correct a ref mistake, if no VAR the two mistakes are allowed to play out and everyone is even more pissed at the ref

If anything had VAR scope been wider in terms of what it can correct (the 2nd booking for example) then perhaps the game plays out differently 

39 minutes ago, 10menwent2mow said:

How many pens have we seen given that wouldn't even have been claimed for in the past. If a player has been fouled then great but it certainly feels like the huge increase in penalties since the introduction of Var has been due to every single handball in the box (apart from Consi on Saturday) being penalised with a pen. 

If var was being utilised for its original idea of 'correcting clear and obvious errors', then, again, great. However it's essentially being utilised to re-referee entire games and over analyse every goal scored to see if someone has committed a tiny offence to give a reason to rule it out. It's shite, it'll always be shite and it should be binned. 

Doesn't matter if players dont claim for it or not, it just means they have missed a rule break as well

Fans used to moan like f**k on a daily basis about how refs "missed" things (i highlight missed because some fans would claim the officials did it on purpose lol) now we have a system where most of the incidents that are "missed" are spotted and recalled (not many like the weekend arent) and yet we complain and want to bin it, why? So we can stand about less at games and moan 3 times as much post match about how the officials are either shite or biased towards x team? 

[Dons_1988]

10 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

Wether its simplistic or not its the truth, yeah it can suck the life out of games waiting around but take the celtic v hibs game on sat for example, twice VAR had to correct a ref mistake, if no VAR the two mistakes are allowed to play out and everyone is even more pissed at the ref

If anything had VAR scope been wider in terms of what it can correct (the 2nd booking for example) then perhaps the game plays out differently 

Doesn't matter if players dont claim for it or not, it just means they have missed a rule break as well

Fans used to moan like f**k on a daily basis about how refs "missed" things (i highlight missed because some fans would claim the officials did it on purpose lol) now we have a system where most of the incidents that are "missed" are spotted and recalled (not many like the weekend arent) and yet we complain and want to bin it, why? So we can stand about less at games and moan 3 times as much post match about how the officials are either shite or biased towards x team? 

This is where fans need to grow up, admit that we follow an imperfect sport and that human error is part and parcel of it. And also reflect on the fact that a refereeing decision probably didn’t actually cost you the game, albeit it had a small impact. 

[54_and_counting]

5 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

This is where fans need to grow up, admit that we follow an imperfect sport and that human error is part and parcel of it. And also reflect on the fact that a refereeing decision probably didn’t actually cost you the game, albeit it had a small impact. 

Haha absolutely no chance of that, look at the aftermath of the celtic v hibs game and thats with VAR getting two decisions correct 

Football has long stopped caring about fans in the ground, when watching a game on telly the VAR wait is barely noticeable because we get replays (and usually see the foul originally missed) and before we know it the decision has been rectified, 

But getting the decisions right to a watching public is way more important than caring if x amount of fans need to wait a min or two in the ground 

[Dons_1988]

1 minute ago, 54_and_counting said:

Haha absolutely no chance of that, look at the aftermath of the celtic v hibs game and thats with VAR getting two decisions correct 

Football has long stopped caring about fans in the ground, when watching a game on telly the VAR wait is barely noticeable because we get replays (and usually see the foul originally missed) and before we know it the decision has been rectified, 

But getting the decisions right to a watching public is way more important than caring if x amount of fans need to wait a min or two in the ground 

Agree that unfortunately that’s the world we live in but it is just one of the many things wrong with football right now. 

 

[craigkillie]

22 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

Doesn't matter if players dont claim for it or not, it just means they have missed a rule break as well

It does matter. The point, as presented, of VAR was to prevent gross injustices. If the players on the pitch don't even know a supposed offence has been committed then there cannot possibly be any sort of injustice.

My view is that if we are stuck with VAR, then decisions should only be overturned if the opposing team can clearly explain to the referee or fourth official what the infringement was within 5-10 seconds of it happening.

Edited March 22, 2023 by craigkillie

[54_and_counting]

9 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

It does matter. The point, as presented, of VAR was to prevent gross injustices. If the players on the pitch don't even know a supposed offence has been committed then there cannot possibly be any sort of injustice.

My view is that if we are stuck with VAR, then decisions should only be overturned if the opposing team can clearly explain to the referee or fourth official what the infringement was within 5-10 seconds of it happening.

How many VAR checks are for stuff that players dont claim for though, fine your idea is easily workable but most VAR checks are stuff the now that players do claim for anyway, 

 

[gannonball]

19 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

It does matter. The point, as presented, of VAR was to prevent gross injustices. If the players on the pitch don't even know a supposed offence has been committed then there cannot possibly be any sort of injustice.

My view is that if we are stuck with VAR, then decisions should only be overturned if the opposing team can clearly explain to the referee or fourth official what the infringement was within 5-10 seconds of it happening.

 

1 minute ago, 54_and_counting said:

How many VAR checks are for stuff that players dont claim for though, fine your idea is easily workable but most VAR checks are stuff the now that players do claim for anyway, 

 

Then make it like tennis where you are only allowed X amount of checks (and you keep them if you are right) You will be probably  soon find players will stop acting like incredulent fannies as much if they know a foul really wasn't committed.

[craigkillie]

9 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

How many VAR checks are for stuff that players dont claim for though, fine your idea is easily workable but most VAR checks are stuff the now that players do claim for anyway, 

 

Off the top of my head just from Killie games this season, Celtic's (second) disallowed goal in the League Cup semi, Vassell's red card against Hibs and Vassell's disallowed goals from the weekend. Two of those are unequivocally correct decisions, but neither of them actually delivered any sort of sense of justice.

[54_and_counting]

35 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Off the top of my head just from Killie games this season, Celtic's (second) disallowed goal in the League Cup semi, Vassell's red card against Hibs and Vassell's disallowed goals from the weekend. Two of those are unequivocally correct decisions, but neither of them actually delivered any sort of sense of justice.

But surely if they are the correct decisions then in terms of consistency it needs to be applied every game, or else you'll have players and fans coming out going "why was this goal chopped off when x player did the same last week and it was given" 

I get what you are saying if players dont claim, however the players will just say its not their job to ref the game, 

We've long argued for consistency in refereeing decisions, if VAR can help achieve that then its a small step/stumble in the right direction 

[54_and_counting]

45 minutes ago, gannonball said:

 

Then make it like tennis where you are only allowed X amount of checks (and you keep them if you are right) You will be probably  soon find players will stop acting like incredulent fannies as much if they know a foul really wasn't committed.

Again though a foul can be a refs opinion which will always be around

One ref might give a foul one week and another ref sees it as a non foul, but the players wont

I genuinely dont know what else can be used to help make decisions better and quicker, but removing VAR means we'll just go back to the old days where fans will moan or complain that refs are shite/cheating on an hourly basis

I think VAR should be extended to second yellow offences as well, hibs red at the weekend and possibly motherwells red as well

[Antiochas III]

5 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

 

I genuinely dont know what else can be used to help make decisions better and quicker, but removing VAR means we'll just go back to the old days where fans will moan or complain that refs are shite/cheating on an hourly basis

Yeah but introduction of VAR hasn't stopped that.

[craigkillie]

42 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

But surely if they are the correct decisions then in terms of consistency it needs to be applied every game, or else you'll have players and fans coming out going "why was this goal chopped off when x player did the same last week and it was given"

Attempting to appease the childlike minds who think like this is exactly what got us into this sort of situation in the first place.

However, with the proposed rule I suggested, the "blame" for this decision not being given would be directly aimed at the players/manager of that team for not identifying it and asking for a review.