Che Adams Appreciation Thread

[Scary Bear]

[Skyline Drifter]

On 06/01/2023 at 11:17, craigkillie said:

I would say no, unless they were born in Scotland, his partner or her parents are Scottish, or they end up going to school in Scotland for a few years.

 

On 06/01/2023 at 20:04, BFTD said:

Seems a bit ridiculous that someone could pick up a barrel of caps for a nation, only for their child to be declared ineligible.

There's bound to have been cases of this happening already. You'd like to think they might have a good case for an exception to be made.

It's actually a question I've mused on before (possibly not on here) and I've never found a definitive answer on. Personally I think if dad has represented Scotland then there should be an exemption for any child even if the father was himself a grandfather qualification and the son therefore has to go 4 generations back to find someone Scots born.

As much as I've tried, I've not found an example of anyone actually affected by this who we could base it on.

The other one that fascinates me is the adoption question mark. Or as many know it, the 'Tony Cascarino' Issue. Have FIFA ever issued any formal guidance on that?

For those unaware Tony Cascarino, who was born in England, qualified for Republic of Ireland through a grandparent and played for them 88 times including three finals tournaments. It subsequently emerged at the end of his international career that he'd been adopted as a baby and the grandfather he qualified through wasn't a blood relative. I'm unclear on whether Cascarino himself even knew he was adopted when he started playing for Ireland.

Is it possible to adopt yourself into qualification by joining a family with a grandparent who isn't a blood relative? I don't think it was ever clarified whether Cascarino would have been eligible if they'd found this out when still playing but I'm guessing there's probably been other instances of adopted people being potentially eligible somewhere since then. Anyone know?

[gannonball]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

It's actually a question I've mused on before (possibly not on here) and I've never found a definitive answer on. Personally I think if dad has represented Scotland then there should be an exemption for any child even if the father was himself a grandfather qualification and the son therefore has to go 4 generations back to find someone Scots born.

As much as I've tried, I've not found an example of anyone actually affected by this who we could base it on.

The other one that fascinates me is the adoption question mark. Or as many know it, the 'Tony Cascarino' Issue. Have FIFA ever issued any formal guidance on that?

For those unaware Tony Cascarino, who was born in England, qualified for Republic of Ireland through a grandparent and played for them 88 times including three finals tournaments. It subsequently emerged at the end of his international career that he'd been adopted as a baby and the grandfather he qualified through wasn't a blood relative. I'm unclear on whether Cascarino himself even knew he was adopted when he started playing for Ireland.

Is it possible to adopt yourself into qualification by joining a family with a grandparent who isn't a blood relative? I don't think it was ever clarified whether Cascarino would have been eligible if they'd found this out when still playing but I'm guessing there's probably been other instances of adopted people being potentially eligible somewhere since then. Anyone know?

Having read Cascarino's autobiography albeit about 2 decades ago I think it was actually his mother that was adopted which makes it even more of a clusterfuck. He didn't find out till after he had played a number of times for Ireland iirc.

[Miguel Sanchez]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

It's actually a question I've mused on before (possibly not on here) and I've never found a definitive answer on. Personally I think if dad has represented Scotland then there should be an exemption for any child even if the father was himself a grandfather qualification and the son therefore has to go 4 generations back to find someone Scots born.

As much as I've tried, I've not found an example of anyone actually affected by this who we could base it on.

The other one that fascinates me is the adoption question mark. Or as many know it, the 'Tony Cascarino' Issue. Have FIFA ever issued any formal guidance on that?

For those unaware Tony Cascarino, who was born in England, qualified for Republic of Ireland through a grandparent and played for them 88 times including three finals tournaments. It subsequently emerged at the end of his international career that he'd been adopted as a baby and the grandfather he qualified through wasn't a blood relative. I'm unclear on whether Cascarino himself even knew he was adopted when he started playing for Ireland.

Is it possible to adopt yourself into qualification by joining a family with a grandparent who isn't a blood relative? I don't think it was ever clarified whether Cascarino would have been eligible if they'd found this out when still playing but I'm guessing there's probably been other instances of adopted people being potentially eligible somewhere since then. Anyone know?

Reading this gives me an idea for the most hilarious revoking of a tournament win for England for fielding an ineligible player. Hopefully it happens.

[Quentin Taranbino]

From Wikipedia so take with a punch of salt as always;

 

Under FIFA rules, eligibility by descent is strictly limited to biological descent; adoption is not considered at all. By contrast, World Rugby, the governing body for rugby union, specifies that if a player has been legally adopted under the laws of the relevant country, descent is traced through the adoptive parent(s). This replacement also applies in cases where the player was not adopted, but one or both biological parents were themselves adopted

[Skyline Drifter]

38 minutes ago, gannonball said:

Having read Cascarino's autobiography albeit about 2 decades ago I think it was actually his mother that was adopted which makes it even more of a clusterfuck. He didn't find out till after he had played a number of times for Ireland iirc.

Just researched a little further and you are correct. Doesn't change the general point though. Can you change your nationality by adoption? Whether by you or a parent,

[Skyline Drifter]

35 minutes ago, Quentin Taranbino said:

From Wikipedia so take with a punch of salt as always;

 

Under FIFA rules, eligibility by descent is strictly limited to biological descent; adoption is not considered at all. By contrast, World Rugby, the governing body for rugby union, specifies that if a player has been legally adopted under the laws of the relevant country, descent is traced through the adoptive parent(s). This replacement also applies in cases where the player was not adopted, but one or both biological parents were themselves adopted

Thanks. Wiki isn't something I'd want to stake my life on but it sounds like Cascarino was ineligible and therefore an adopted person can't take on the line of their adopted parent. Still begs the question of what if you don't actually know you or your parent were adopted. I'm not adopted, I don't know what paperwork actually exists. Do authorities issue amended birth certificates? You hear all the time about people who never knew they were adopted until clearing out a parent's records or something but surely most of those people had passports and therefore must have had birth certificates. Are these amended?

[Monkey Tennis]

I'd thought that with Cascarino, FIFA adjudged that he would legitimately have qualified for Ireland via adoption. 

It all happened retrospectively of course, but I thought the big story that he hadn't been eligible for all those caps, was fairly quickly doused by some FIFA statement or directive.

[velo army]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Thanks. Wiki isn't something I'd want to stake my life on but it sounds like Cascarino was ineligible and therefore an adopted person can't take on the line of their adopted parent. Still begs the question of what if you don't actually know you or your parent were adopted. I'm not adopted, I don't know what paperwork actually exists. Do authorities issue amended birth certificates? You hear all the time about people who never knew they were adopted until clearing out a parent's records or something but surely most of those people had passports and therefore must have had birth certificates. Are these amended?

In the UK you get a certificate of adoption that essentially voids your birth certificate. My birth certificate is no longer a legally valid document. It's got information I can use, obviously, and the information is valid. It's just not a valid legal document anymore.

Nationality is a funny one as it's entirely nebulous and the criteria change depending on who you ask, unlike citizenship, which is more easily defined.

I think denying someone on the grounds of adoption is archaic and makes the mistake of attaching genetic determination to something that is an entirely felt experience.

[Skyline Drifter]

42 minutes ago, velo army said:

In the UK you get a certificate of adoption that essentially voids your birth certificate. My birth certificate is no longer a legally valid document. It's got information I can use, obviously, and the information is valid. It's just not a valid legal document anymore.

Nationality is a funny one as it's entirely nebulous and the criteria change depending on who you ask, unlike citizenship, which is more easily defined.

I think denying someone on the grounds of adoption is archaic and makes the mistake of attaching genetic determination to something that is an entirely felt experience.

Ok, so just for satisfaction of my curiosity then, does that mean its impossible for an adult with a passport not to know they are adopted? When they try to apply for it they'll need documentation that makes it obvious they are? 

[eez-eh]

Wouldn’t the Cascarino thing have been of the time where citizenship was enough to qualify? He’d probably have been given that through his adoptive family if he needed it.

[GNU_Linux]

9 hours ago, Scary Bear said:

Torino also signed Duván Zapata. Someones clearly plotting a revolution.

[velo army]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Ok, so just for satisfaction of my curiosity then, does that mean its impossible for an adult with a passport not to know they are adopted? When they try to apply for it they'll need documentation that makes it obvious they are? 

If the person managed to somehow fluke having the same birth surname as their adopted family they could technically still use their birth certificate and not know that they're adopted, but you can imagine how rare this is. It's possible that they could get to the age of 20 if their last passport was when they were 10 and the parents applied for it. Older than that it would get tougher.

Adoption nowadays is much more enlightened and trauma-informed, so the likelihood of someone being adopted and not knowing about it is infinitesimal.

[Skyline Drifter]

2 hours ago, velo army said:

If the person managed to somehow fluke having the same birth surname as their adopted family they could technically still use their birth certificate and not know that they're adopted, but you can imagine how rare this is. It's possible that they could get to the age of 20 if their last passport was when they were 10 and the parents applied for it. Older than that it would get tougher.

Surely the birth certificate would have a different mother and father name even if the surname was the same?

Can you get a 10 year passport for kids? I'm sure mine have a five year one.

[velo army]

13 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Surely the birth certificate would have a different mother and father name even if the surname was the same?

Can you get a 10 year passport for kids? I'm sure mine have a five year one.

I have no idea about the kids passports. I don't have kids. To your first point I wasn't being wholly serious and was playing with your hypothetical. You're right, if someone was to apply for a passport and needed their birth certificate they would find out very quickly that they were in fact adopted. 

I'm going to see if I can adopt Che Adams' kids, but only if they look like they might be good at football.

[DG.Roma]

33 minutes ago, velo army said:

I'm going to see if I can adopt Che Adams' kids, but only if they look like they might be good at football.

No offence to Che, but can you adopt Messi's instead please? Or Aguero's, he had a son with Maradona's daughter. 

[Butters Scotch]

Glad Che has moved to the Serie A and can learn a different football culture and training methods. Hopefully he develops as a player over there and becomes a more all rounded better striker. 

[Alan Twelve]

1 hour ago, Butters Scotch said:

Glad Che has moved to the Serie A and can learn a different football culture and training methods. Hopefully he develops as a player over there and becomes a more all rounded better striker. 

Aye, but maybe his kids will play for Italy now.

[Monkey Tennis]

10 hours ago, velo army said:

I'm going to see if I can adopt Che Adams' kids

Tough gig.

They'll run around a Hell of a lot, but probably not achieve a great deal.

[Gordopolis]

2 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Tough gig.

They'll run around a Hell of a lot, but probably not achieve a great deal.

TBF that has been levelled at almost every Scotland striker this century.