Argentina 78: a reappraisal

[Ewan8472]

On 30/11/2021 at 01:09, Mark Connolly said:

Joe Jordan wouldn't be anywhere near Scotland's Top 100 players of all time.

LOL

[Skyline Drifter]

On 29/11/2021 at 21:13, Thane of Cawdor said:

 

This was the Scottish squad in 1978. It would take some degree of hubris to believe that these guys could win a World Cup. All decent players at club level, but Souness and Dalglish the only two approaching world class. Those two would be the only candidates from that squad to be anywhere near the 100 best Scotland internationals of all time.

The mad hype at the time was as much the gallus swagger of 'here's tae us, wha's like us' as any genuine belief that we would win the World Cup.

Scotland's World Cup squad 1978

 

                                  D.O.B.        CLUB                       WC
      1 GK Alan Rough             25 Nov 1951   Partick Thistle
      2 DF Sandy Jardine          31 Dec 1948   Glasgow Rangers            1974
      3 DF William Donachie       05 Oct 1951   Manchester City (ENG)      1974
      4 DF Martin Buchan          06 Mar 1949   Manchester United (ENG)    1974
      5 DF Gordon McQueen         26 Jun 1952   Manchester United (ENG)    1974
      6 MD Bruce Rioch            06 Sep 1947   Derby County (ENG)
      7 MD Don Masson             26 Aug 1949   Notts County (ENG)
      8 FW Kenny Dalglish         04 Mar 1951   Liverpool (ENG)            1974
      9 FW Joe Jordan             15 Dec 1951   Manchester United (ENG)    1974
     10 MD Asa Hartford           24 Oct 1950   Manchester City (ENG)
     11 MD Willie Johnston        19 Dec 1946   West Bromwich Albion (ENG)
     12 GK Jim Blyth              02 Feb 1955   Coventry City (ENG)
     13 DF Stuart Kennedy         31 May 1953   Aberdeen
     14 DF Thomas Forsyth         23 Jan 1949   Glasgow Rangers
     15 MD Archie Gemmill         24 Mar 1947   Nottingham Forest (ENG)
     16 FW Lou Macari             07 Jun 1949   Manchester United (ENG)
     17 FW Derek Johnstone        04 Nov 1953   Glasgow Rangers
     18 MD Graeme Souness         06 May 1953   Liverpool (ENG)
     19 FW John Robertson         20 Jan 1953   Nottingham Forest (ENG)
     20 GK Bobby Clark            26 Sep 1945   Aberdeen
     21 FW Joe Harper             11 Jan 1948   Aberdeen
     22 DF Kenny Burns            23 Sep 1953   Nottingham Forest (ENG)

John Robertson was 100% world class.

[nate]

On 30/11/2021 at 01:09, Mark Connolly said:

Joe Jordan wouldn't be anywhere near Scotland's Top 100 players of all time.

Loving the impudence of this post. A wind-up surely? Joe Jordan is Scotland’s most significant ever international player, it could be argued. Scoring in 3 consecutive World Cups, scoring the winner that got us to Germany 74, not to mention being a fine handball player ( sorry Wales). Keep em coming Mark.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, nate said:

Loving the impudence of this post. A wind-up surely? Joe Jordan is Scotland’s most significant ever international player, it could be argued. Scoring in 3 consecutive World Cups, scoring the winner that got us to Germany 74, not to mention being a fine handball player ( sorry Wales). Keep em coming Mark.

Is @Mark Connolly not in fact simply drawing attention to the ludicrous suggestion from @Thane of Cawdor that Jordan wouldn't be in our top 100? That's how I read it anyway.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Skyline Drifter

[Marlow]

3 hours ago, Ewan8472 said:

Still no natural left full back. It is worse than I remembered !

Definitely McLeod's fault: with Danny McGrain injured, and he coud play superbly at left back if necessary, Donnachie really was the only one in the squad. Frank Gray, for instance, had been named in the initial 40 man squad, but McLeod insisted on taking Gordon McQueen, even though every member of the medical/phsyio staff insisted he would never be fit for any stage of the tournament (McLeod's dream was to play him in the later stages).

With Donnachie suspended and Jardine injured for the Peru game, the back four was always going to have someone out of position at left back.

[Marlow]

3 hours ago, Ewan8472 said:

1982 - Could you elaborate on the questionable man management please ?

Anything to do with H*ns*n ?

I remember Davie Proven in his column saying , iirc , Jock Stein was " intimidated " by S**n*ss

I remember the defence was poor against N.Z. and continued from there.

 

Going back to 1978 ( no , no ! ) Stuart Kennedy has some things to say about squad " unity "

Burns told him , Stuart , directly he did not think he was any good.

Rioch and senior players expected the " junior " players to get them their drinks

Archie was not popular !!!

 

 

1982, at that time Stein, for some reason, enjoyed treating Dalglish really badly. Even Stein worshippers in the know admit this and that it affected the already dour Kenny's feelings about playing for Scotland under Stein. Provan was also treated badly by all accounts and thought about abandoning the squad while in Spain. Other players had been horrified at the way Stein sadistically told some of their friends in a squad gathering pre-World Cup (maybe at the England game?) that they weren't going - Ray Steward was one of the victims and it got other players worried about how Stein would handle them. He also had favourites - Souness obviously being numero uno - and the home based players thought he was always going to go for his anglos in key positions at the start (Evans, Hansen) or proteges (McGrain/Rough) no matter how much they proved themselves. He even pissed off his support staff - he asked them who they would advise him to pick for the USSR game and Jim McLean said McLeish and Miller in central defence, only for Stein to admit he had no interest in anyone else's ideas and it had been a wind up.

 

 

[Ewan8472]

31 minutes ago, Marlow said:

Definitely McLeod's fault: with Danny McGrain injured, and he coud play superbly at left back if necessary, Donnachie really was the only one in the squad. Frank Gray, for instance, had been named in the initial 40 man squad, but McLeod insisted on taking Gordon McQueen, even though every member of the medical/phsyio staff insisted he would never be fit for any stage of the tournament (McLeod's dream was to play him in the later stages).

With Donnachie suspended and Jardine injured for the Peru game, the back four was always going to have someone out of position at left back.

Unbelievable !!

[Ewan8472]

30 minutes ago, Marlow said:

1982, at that time Stein, for some reason, enjoyed treating Dalglish really badly. Even Stein worshippers in the know admit this and that it affected the already dour Kenny's feelings about playing for Scotland under Stein. Provan was also treated badly by all accounts and thought about abandoning the squad while in Spain. Other players had been horrified at the way Stein sadistically told some of their friends in a squad gathering pre-World Cup (maybe at the England game?) that they weren't going - Ray Steward was one of the victims and it got other players worried about how Stein would handle them. He also had favourites - Souness obviously being numero uno - and the home based players thought he was always going to go for his anglos in key positions at the start (Evans, Hansen) or proteges (McGrain/Rough) no matter how much they proved themselves. He even pissed off his support staff - he asked them who they would advise him to pick for the USSR game and Jim McLean said McLeish and Miller in central defence, only for Stein to admit he had no interest in anyone else's ideas and it had been a wind up.

 

 

Wow !

Any sources for further reading please ?

IIRC Evans and McGrain got dropped for mistakes in the N.Z. game.

According to Paul Sturrock , for the Brazil game , H*ns*n was asked to play right sided  defender but , realising he was a third rate David Narey , refused !

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Ewan8472

[Binos]

Not a bad wee outfit 

Alan Rough 
Sandy Jardine 1 cup winners cup 
William Donachie 
Martin Buchan 
Gordon McQueen 1 european cup runner up 
Bruce Rioch 
Don Masson 
Kenny Dalglish 3 european cups 
Joe Jordan 1 european cup runners up, 1 cup winners cup runners up 
A Hartford 
Willie Johnston 1 cup winners cup,  1 cup winners cup runners up 
J Blyth 
Stuart Kennedy 
Thomas Forsyth 
Archie Gemmill 1 european cup 
Lou Macari 
Derek Johnstone  1 cup winners cup 
Graeme Souness 3 european cups 
John Robertson 2 european cups 
Bobby Clark 
Joe Harper  
Kenny Burns 2 european cups

[Marlow]

37 minutes ago, Ewan8472 said:

Wow !

Any sources for further reading please ?

IIRC Evans and McGrain got dropped for mistakes in the N.Z. game.

According to Paul Sturrock , for the Brazil game , H*ns*n was asked to play right sided  defender but , realising he was a third rate David Narey , refused !

 

 

 

Evans and McGrain were deservedly dropped as they gifted the goals to New Zealand - even Stein had to see that (mind you, he brought McGrain on against the USSR when we were chasing a win in the last game - wtf?). No idea why he thought playing Evans in the first place made any sense other than to appease media south of the border because he had won a European Cup recently - he had figured precisely f-all in the qualifying games, not even in squads. 

A good starting point is Archie MacPherson's "Adventures in the Golden Age" and its chapters about the 1982 World Cup. Over the years, I've read so many biographies/ghost written autobiographies of people involved that it all blends into a blur beyond that. There is a cracking book to be written about the 82 World Cup. 

I'm not sure what the ideal starting line-up would have been in 82 for the first match and I know it's easy to say this, but lots of us knew at the time that Leighton was clearly a better keeper than Rough, that the McLeish/Miller partnership worked and McGrain was past his best, though I do acknowledge that Rough and McGrain were experienced and Hansen was a big name player for Europe's top club, so I understand Stein's conservatism. Mind you, I couldn't stand Hansen or Archibald as Scotland players and the faith in Alan Brazil was also misplaced.

 

Of the people available, I reckon this lot would have got us off to a better start (and finish) in that campaign:

 

Leighton

Narey or Burley

Gray 

McLeish

Miller

Souness

Strachan

Wark

Dalglish

Robertson

Jordan.

 

[Mark Connolly]

4 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Is @Mark Connolly not in fact simply drawing attention to the ludicrous suggestion from @Thane of Cawdor that Jordan wouldn't be in our top 100? That's how I read it anyway.

This is correct, in fact for the very reasons nate laid out.

If you had to pick a best ever Scotland XI, you’d be finding 8 other guys to fit round Dalglish, Law and Jordan

[Ewan8472]

14 hours ago, Marlow said:

1982, at that time Stein, for some reason, enjoyed treating Dalglish really badly. Even Stein worshippers in the know admit this and that it affected the already dour Kenny's feelings about playing for Scotland under Stein. Provan was also treated badly by all accounts and thought about abandoning the squad while in Spain. Other players had been horrified at the way Stein sadistically told some of their friends in a squad gathering pre-World Cup (maybe at the England game?) that they weren't going - Ray Steward was one of the victims and it got other players worried about how Stein would handle them. He also had favourites - Souness obviously being numero uno - and the home based players thought he was always going to go for his anglos in key positions at the start (Evans, Hansen) or proteges (McGrain/Rough) no matter how much they proved themselves. He even pissed off his support staff - he asked them who they would advise him to pick for the USSR game and Jim McLean said McLeish and Miller in central defence, only for Stein to admit he had no interest in anyone else's ideas and it had been a wind up.

 

 

Was Tommy Burns treated the same way as Ray Steward/t ?

[Ewan8472]

10 hours ago, Mark Connolly said:

This is correct, in fact for the very reasons nate laid out.

If you had to pick a best ever Scotland XI, you’d be finding 8 other guys to fit round Dalglish, Law and Jordan

I do not think you would play the three of them unless Dalglish , or Law , was in midfield !

Edited December 4, 2021 by Ewan8472

[Thane of Cawdor]

11 hours ago, Mark Connolly said:

This is correct, in fact for the very reasons nate laid out.

If you had to pick a best ever Scotland XI, you’d be finding 8 other guys to fit round Dalglish, Law and Jordan

I think you are confusing Joe Jordan's important contribution in several matches with his overall ability. Arguably, Geoff Hurst won* the World Cup for England, but he wouldn't/shouldn't be considered one of their finest players.

* Assuming you are willing to concede that they did legitimately win in 1966.

 

[Marlow]

52 minutes ago, Ewan8472 said:

Was Tommy Burns treated the same way as Ray Steward/t ?

Yes, you are right. Apparently it was the sadism of the way they were treated that shocked other players.

[nate]

On 02/12/2021 at 18:57, Marlow said:

Some really great posts here. 

I really, really recommend Graham McColl's book "78: How a Nation Lost the World Cup" as the best set of insights into that campaign ever assembled, although the quality of some of the analysis on this thread is just as good.

I still think 1982 was, in a very different way, a disappointment: I think Stein had a better squad than any other Scotland manager in a World Cup (though Ormond came closest to a best defined team of 11) but they did not do as well as they could have due to selection decisions and questionable man management, legend though he was. I'd actually like to read a book dedicated to that World Cup campaign (there's one good one about 74 and two about 78). Archie MacPherson has a very good chapter on it in his "Adventures in the Golden Age" but I'd love to know more.

 

 

 

Stein bungled 82. Shipping 8 goals in 3 games at this level exposes glaring tactical deficiencies. It’s poor coaching. 8 goals! Of the 24 competing nations only pisspoor New Zealand and El Salvador conceded more. We certainly can’t blame it on inexperience. Scottish players who kicked a ball down there must’ve had about 500 caps between them.

Compare our 82 to similar nations playing a similar style of football, with a squad of equal (or lesser) players, and who were likewise seeded 3rd in their Group. For example, Northern Ireland. They had hosts Spain and a tough Yugoslavia in their Group and only conceded ONCE. Why? Because they were better organised. Their manager played to their collective strengths, not their individual weaknesses.

Compare 82 to 86, under Fergie. We had a comprehensively tougher Group (no minnows) and only conceded 3. Spain wasn’t an aberration. Stein’s defensive shortcomings were again exposed in the follow-up Euro 84 qualifiers, another alarming defensive debacle on our way to finishing bottom of our section.

I agree with poster Marlow. The 82 squad was better than 78’s. The opposition was weaker too, IMO. The Soviets - essentially our main rivals - showed no credible form either side of 82. They’d finished last in the most recent EC qualifiers, trailing Greece, Hungary and Finland ffs. Obviously you’re no European diddy reaching a WC, but USSR had a really easy qualifying section for Spain 82 (Iceland, Turkey and some others with little or no WC pedigree).

The Miller-Hansen slapstick show was indicative of a deeper malaise: we were a defensive shambles. The 2 NZ goals are still painful to watch. Stein was incapable of maximising the resources at his disposal. Defenders Miller, Hansen, McGrain, Frank Gray to a lesser extent…superior club players and capable internationalists every one of them. Down in Spain they looked like they’d never met before. And even Stein realised the folly of picking Allan Evans. He never picked him again.

If Stein takes the plaudits for past glories (and rightly so) then he must also take the blame for Spain 82. 

[Ewan8472]

2 hours ago, Marlow said:

Yes, you are right. Apparently it was the sadism of the way they were treated that shocked other players.

There are a few memory cells firing off !

Maybe Jock Stein was still suffering from Argentina !?

 

[Ewan8472]

10 minutes ago, nate said:

Stein bungled 82. Shipping 8 goals in 3 games at this level exposes glaring tactical deficiencies. It’s poor coaching. 8 goals! Of the 24 competing nations only pisspoor New Zealand and El Salvador conceded more. We certainly can’t blame it on inexperience. Scottish players who kicked a ball down there must’ve had about 500 caps between them.

Compare our 82 to similar nations playing a similar style of football, with a squad of equal (or lesser) players, and who were likewise seeded 3rd in their Group. For example, Northern Ireland. They had hosts Spain and a tough Yugoslavia in their Group and only conceded ONCE. Why? Because they were better organised. Their manager played to their collective strengths, not their individual weaknesses.

Compare 82 to 86, under Fergie. We had a comprehensively tougher Group (no minnows) and only conceded 3. Spain wasn’t an aberration. Stein’s defensive shortcomings were again exposed in the follow-up Euro 84 qualifiers, another alarming defensive debacle on our way to finishing bottom of our section.

I agree with poster Marlow. The 82 squad was better than 78’s. The opposition was weaker too, IMO. The Soviets - essentially our main rivals - showed no credible form either side of 82. They’d finished last in the most recent EC qualifiers, trailing Greece, Hungary and Finland ffs. Obviously you’re no European diddy reaching a WC, but USSR had a really easy qualifying section for Spain 82 (Iceland, Turkey and some others with little or no WC pedigree).

The Miller-Hansen slapstick show was indicative of a deeper malaise: we were a defensive shambles. The 2 NZ goals are still painful to watch. Stein was incapable of maximising the resources at his disposal. Defenders Miller, Hansen, McGrain, Frank Gray to a lesser extent…superior club players and capable internationalists every one of them. Down in Spain they looked like they’d never met before. And even Stein realised the folly of picking Allan Evans. He never picked him again.

If Stein takes the plaudits for past glories (and rightly so) then he must also take the blame for Spain 82. 

I do not think Jock Stein can be held responsible for one of Hansen and Miller being a ****

or Evans and McGrain's individual mistakes

The deeper malaise might have been S**n*SS not tracking back his runners.. The midfield has to provide the defence with some support.

Choosing Evans was a bit strange

On the other hand the point about Northern Ireland is extremely valid , and illuminating

Edited December 4, 2021 by Ewan8472

[Marlow]

On 04/12/2021 at 14:33, nate said:

Stein bungled 82. Shipping 8 goals in 3 games at this level exposes glaring tactical deficiencies. It’s poor coaching. 8 goals! Of the 24 competing nations only pisspoor New Zealand and El Salvador conceded more. We certainly can’t blame it on inexperience. Scottish players who kicked a ball down there must’ve had about 500 caps between them.

Compare our 82 to similar nations playing a similar style of football, with a squad of equal (or lesser) players, and who were likewise seeded 3rd in their Group. For example, Northern Ireland. They had hosts Spain and a tough Yugoslavia in their Group and only conceded ONCE. Why? Because they were better organised. Their manager played to their collective strengths, not their individual weaknesses.

Compare 82 to 86, under Fergie. We had a comprehensively tougher Group (no minnows) and only conceded 3. Spain wasn’t an aberration. Stein’s defensive shortcomings were again exposed in the follow-up Euro 84 qualifiers, another alarming defensive debacle on our way to finishing bottom of our section.

I agree with poster Marlow. The 82 squad was better than 78’s. The opposition was weaker too, IMO. The Soviets - essentially our main rivals - showed no credible form either side of 82. They’d finished last in the most recent EC qualifiers, trailing Greece, Hungary and Finland ffs. Obviously you’re no European diddy reaching a WC, but USSR had a really easy qualifying section for Spain 82 (Iceland, Turkey and some others with little or no WC pedigree).

The Miller-Hansen slapstick show was indicative of a deeper malaise: we were a defensive shambles. The 2 NZ goals are still painful to watch. Stein was incapable of maximising the resources at his disposal. Defenders Miller, Hansen, McGrain, Frank Gray to a lesser extent…superior club players and capable internationalists every one of them. Down in Spain they looked like they’d never met before. And even Stein realised the folly of picking Allan Evans. He never picked him again.

If Stein takes the plaudits for past glories (and rightly so) then he must also take the blame for Spain 82. 

Yes, for such a legendary football thinker, his defensive planning and selections for the national team were poor for years. Hansen was regularly pish for Scotland in the first few years of Stein's reign, but the press and media, especially in England, seemed to make sure he got picked for all the big games he could be bothered turning up for. Stein also did this mad thing regularly of playing central defenders out of position in midfield for the first few years, so you'd see Miller, Narey, McLeish, etc, all being wasted there while some nightmare partnership would play at centre half and sweeper.

It was only really in the last two years of his life that he saw the light at the back and went for the Leighton, McLeish, Miller triangle as his foundation (which quite a lot of people, me included, had been saying in the year or so before the 82 World Cup - McLeish and Miller had had a brilliant game together against England down at Wembley in 81 in what I think was the first ever time Stein had picked them together, and that was when calls began to grow to make them the regular central defence, which Stein ignored. People had also over the same time period been wanting Leighton to start getting some international games under his belt, but ISTR Stein never even played him for friendlies before the 82 World Cup. Jim McLean, who was Stein's assistant, definitely wanted McLeish and Miller together at the back, too, in Spain).

Once he settled on McLesih, Miler and Leighton, with a couple of good full backs - at first he liked Nicol and Albiston, then went for the even better Gough and Malpas - we were bloody good at the back.

Fergie knew a good defence when he saw one, and continued into the 86 World Cup with that - for me, our best national team defence ever (I'd put them above even 1974's very good unit). And even when McLeish got injured, the equally great David Narey slotted in superbly to the set up.

It's a pity Fergie couldn't get his midfielders and forwards functioning anywhere near as well for Scotland, though!

[Ken Deans]

Great Post above. Folk forget about the poor reffing decisions that's us first two games and concentrate on the 10 man Uruguay game and Stevie Nicols miss. Uruguay were well versed in playing with 10 men.

Roy Aitkens goal v Denmark was never offside