craigkillie Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Was amazed the other day when I was standing behind someone in the queue in Morrisons and it cost them something like £72 for 100 cigarettes. Would never in a million years have guessed they were so expensive. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leith Green Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 On 10/06/2022 at 14:52, Todd_is_God said: Really not a fan of banning things because they are unhealthy. If it starts with tobacco, how quickly before they turn their attention to alcohol, and/or anything else that a few people at the top of a nanny state deem unsavoury? I dont think the English plans are to ban tobacco, what they want to do is to stop children taking up the habit in order to break the chain in something proven to be addictive and cause severe illness among a high %age of users. I say this as a guy who gave up the fags 17 years ago, but I had smoked from about age 13 to 36..................... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 (edited) On 10/06/2022 at 14:52, Todd_is_God said: Really not a fan of banning things because they are unhealthy. If it starts with tobacco, how quickly before they turn their attention to alcohol, and/or anything else that a few people at the top of a nanny state deem unsavoury? Me neither - it has of course already happened with the sugar tax and the reduction of salt and sugar levels in food. I'd much rather that people were allowed to make their own mistakes occasionally rather than gravitating towards bland state-sponsored food and drink because a minority of blimps are unable to regulate their intake. Edited June 14, 2022 by Hillonearth 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 38 minutes ago, Leith Green said: I dont think the English plans are to ban tobacco, what they want to do is to stop children taking up the habit in order to break the chain in something proven to be addictive and cause severe illness among a high %age of users. I say this as a guy who gave up the fags 17 years ago, but I had smoked from about age 13 to 36..................... Is it going to stop them smoking or are they going to buy counterfeit/black market fags from under the counter of their local shop? Even getting rid of 10 decks has failed, my local shop sells wads of 10 decks brought in from another country, banning folk from this altogether isn't going to help. Smack has never been legal in my lifetime yet it's a problem that rips the heart out this country. I don't know when people in governement will learn that these things need time, money, education and (good!) regulation, banning things people do for pleasure doesn't work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, The Moonster said: Is it going to stop them smoking or are they going to buy counterfeit/black market fags from under the counter of their local shop? Even getting rid of 10 decks has failed, my local shop sells wads of 10 decks brought in from another country, banning folk from this altogether isn't going to help. Smack has never been legal in my lifetime yet it's a problem that rips the heart out this country. I don't know when people in governement will learn that these things need time, money, education and (good!) regulation, banning things people do for pleasure doesn't work. They already know, but saying "this is a problem that will require a lot of resources to fix, and might not see significant improvement in this generation" doesn't win you elections, especially when it won't be you that gets the credit, but another government further down the line. So we're always going to get token, quick fix announcements from politicians that will generate headlines and signal "we've got this" without accomplishing much. The problem isn't them, but us. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leith Green Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 3 minutes ago, The Moonster said: Is it going to stop them smoking or are they going to buy counterfeit/black market fags from under the counter of their local shop? Even getting rid of 10 decks has failed, my local shop sells wads of 10 decks brought in from another country, banning folk from this altogether isn't going to help. Smack has never been legal in my lifetime yet it's a problem that rips the heart out this country. I don't know when people in governement will learn that these things need time, money, education and (good!) regulation, banning things people do for pleasure doesn't work. Your local shopkeeper needs a slap, frankly - everyone knows that 10 packs of fags were banned because they were targeted at children. The smoking ban from pubs / restaurants etc had a massively positive effect on the health of the country, that is a fact borne out by any and every study. Anything that can discourage young people from starting smoking can only be a positive for the health of future generations. Stopping advertising and taking them out of the eyesight of kids in shops has also helped. If people want to continue to buy fags, thats up to them - but there is absolutely no doubt that the legislation already enacted in this country has been positive. You make a point about heroin. Heroin is less harmful than tobacco imo. They should legalise heroin and dispense it to addicts in controlled circumstances - this will break some of the cycles of crime, crap drugs, accidental overdoses that presently kill most addicts.............but this is for a different debate 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 The additional factor is that there is a strong and puritan public health lobby, who have a cosy relationship with many politicians (especially former Health ministers like Sturgeon). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve55 Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 On 09/12/2021 at 10:55, MONKMAN said: Smoking is utterly rank, but if people want to do it then let them get on with it. They know the risks too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leith Green Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 1 minute ago, oaksoft said: ??? Way to go quoting one tiny part of the paragraph. Zoomer.............. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Leith Green said: Anything that can discourage young people from starting smoking can only be a positive for the health of future generations. Well no - imposing a minimum ten year jail sentence for underage smokers might discourage them from that practice, but would clearly cause far more harms than it would remove. Both the proportionality of law as well as considering the trade-offs between public health and *every other part* of a pluralist society are crucial to setting the right policy. The public health lobby does not recognise trade-offs which is why the vast majority of its recommendations should be filed in the bin. Edited June 14, 2022 by vikingTON 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Leith Green said: Your local shopkeeper needs a slap, frankly - everyone knows that 10 packs of fags were banned because they were targeted at children. The smoking ban from pubs / restaurants etc had a massively positive effect on the health of the country, that is a fact borne out by any and every study. Anything that can discourage young people from starting smoking can only be a positive for the health of future generations. Stopping advertising and taking them out of the eyesight of kids in shops has also helped. If people want to continue to buy fags, thats up to them - but there is absolutely no doubt that the legislation already enacted in this country has been positive. You make a point about heroin. Heroin is less harmful than tobacco imo. They should legalise heroin and dispense it to addicts in controlled circumstances - this will break some of the cycles of crime, crap drugs, accidental overdoses that presently kill most addicts.............but this is for a different debate They may well need a slap but they're filling a gap made in the market by stupid governmental policy. I'm all for discouraging people to take up smoking but you don't discourage them by making it illegal. Educate them, show them the ills of that choice and leave them to make their own decision. Totally agree on your proposal for heroin, and I feel that sort of policy should be extended to all drugs. 4 minutes ago, oaksoft said: ??? Obviously the stuff on the street isn't healthy but we use morphine in medical situations. If it was legalised and regulated the stuff on the street would decrease rapidly and so would deaths from it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leith Green Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 4 minutes ago, virginton said: Well no - imposing a minimum ten year jail sentence for underage smokers might discourage them from that practice, but would clearly cause far more harms than it would remove. Well, I dont think anyone is proposing that - perhaps because the access to tobacco is a legal right in prisons, and the not inconsiderable hurdle that its not legal to send underage smokers to jail................ 4 minutes ago, oaksoft said: "Heroin is less harmful than smoking" I agree - because its true. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 7 minutes ago, Leith Green said: Well, I dont think anyone is proposing that - perhaps because the access to tobacco is a legal right in prisons, and the not inconsiderable hurdle that its not legal to send underage smokers to jail................ The point of sending them to jail is not to deprive them of tobacco - and underage smokers would not have that legal right - but to 'discourage' them from starting smoking in the first place. And you did in fact propose that, right here when you stated that: 19 minutes ago, Leith Green said: Anything that can discourage young people from starting smoking can only be a positive for the health of future generations. Sending underage smokers to jail for ten years is in fact 'anything', and is far more practical in terms legal changes than, oh, packing off refugee applicants to Rwanda. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 22 minutes ago, oaksoft said: ??? Medical grade diamorphine administered hygeinically would have negligible health impacts compared to tobacco. Most of the health issues come from the bulking agents and unsanitary conditions, which are arguably a result of prohibition. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leith Green Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, virginton said: Sending underage smokers to jail for ten years is in fact 'anything', and is far more practical in terms legal changes than, oh, packing off refugee applicants to Rwanda. The law has already been tested on this. Sending underage children to jail for smoking clearly hasnt. And - also rather obviously - when I used the word "anything" I didnt mean "anything viking ton can dream up on a tuesday morning just because he hasnt had his espresso" Edited June 14, 2022 by Leith Green 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leith Green Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 Why the f**k did it keep changing Viking to Virgin when I posted that ?????? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 19 minutes ago, Leith Green said: Why the f**k did it keep changing Viking to Virgin when I posted that ?????? John McVeigh is a tit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 38 minutes ago, Leith Green said: Why the f**k did it keep changing Viking to Virgin when I posted that ?????? Because the site owner is a massive manchild who couldn't take VT's wind ups years ago. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, The Moonster said: Because the site owner is a massive manchild who couldn't take VT's wind ups years ago. Looking forward to seeing what The Moonster gets changed to! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Leith Green said: The law has already been tested on this. Sending underage children to jail for smoking clearly hasnt. The law hasn't actually been tested on that, and sending underage children to jail can be started just as easily. The UK Parliament simply passes a law - as it would do to ban access tobacco products - and the onus is on opponents to exhaust the appeal courts process. Welcome to your dystopian, non-constitutional state. Quote And - also rather obviously - when I used the word "anything" I didnt mean "anything viking ton can dream up on a tuesday morning just because he hasnt had his espresso" So you didn't mean 'anything' at all then and just made an arse of it, thanks for playing anyway. And my Moka pot coffee was delicious as usual TYVM. Edited June 14, 2022 by vikingTON 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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