The Gender Debate

[Trogdor]

[Thorongil]

16 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

!!!

Are you claiming that is never the case?

[carpetmonster]

29 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

Apologies if I've mixed up a quote somewhere. 

 

I've read everything posted in the last 10 or so pages (lost count now). None of it has been convincing me that I'm a misguided bigot.

 

You've quoted many things which simply aren't true or gloss over problems. 

 

There is no good quality evidence whatsoever that transition regret rates are low, because the existing studies are not only deemed low quality  (due to design, number of participants etc) but they failed to follow up on their patients in many, many cases. The results were reported early on, with no long term follow up. 

There's plenty. Again, I've posted it. 

Autogynephylia exists, why pretend it doesn't and never allow it to be mentioned?

Autogynephilia is the theorization of Ray Blanchard, notably on the radar of the Southern Poverty Law Center, who asserts that gender dysphoria is a mental disorder, thinks transition is something to do with either demonic possession or Japanese cartoons depending on what day you catch him on and is taken seriously by zero health authorities. 

 

"People won't pay for facilities for such a tiny minority" Ok, but the solution surely can't be that you take what you want anyway, because people want validation?

How, pray tell, do I 'take' a bed on a hospital ward? Surely that would be assigned to me based on where the hospital sees fit to put me? You've also ignored the bit where I pointed out trans-specific facilities would fairly obviously be targets for violence. Are you OK with that?

29 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

This tiny minority has rapidly expanded from when the original GRA was set up in 2004, has it not?

No idea. Have you got any figures? However, as LGBTQ+ folks have become more accepted by mainstream society, it's fairly unsurprising you'll start to find more of them as they feel happier to come out publicly. Same way as left-handedness in people went from 2% to 10% when they stopped beating kids for it in schools and then plateaued at 10% because that's the amount of people who are left handed. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by carpetmonster

[f_c_dundee]

If everyone can go and listen to (and I mean listen to an interview) a young person who was affirmed and eventually went on to medically transition, then realised they'd made a terrible mistake and thn say "yup, I'm happy to take that risk" , well I don't know what else to say.

 

In recent years it's swung towards young women and teenagers left with permanently deepened voices and  facial hair, plus having had their healthy breasts removed. Then realising that this treatment hasn't made them feel better at all, but they can't go back and undo any of it. 

They feel let down by the system that never questioned why they felt the way they did. 

No one is saying that all of them will feel this awful regret, but how often is too much? When they're left potentially sterile and with harm done to their own sexual function?

 

It's brutal when you see the truth of it. 

 

That's the sort of thing that has convinced me that there's more to it.

 

[carpetmonster]

1 minute ago, f_c_dundee said:

If everyone can go and listen to (and I mean listen to an interview) a young person who was affirmed and eventually went on to medically transition, then realised they'd made a terrible mistake and thn say "yup, I'm happy to take that risk" , well I don't know what else to say.

 

In recent years it's swung towards young women and teenagers left with permanently deepened voices and  facial hair, plus having had their healthy breasts removed. Then realising that this treatment hasn't made them feel better at all, but they can't go back and undo any of it. 

They feel let down by the system that never questioned why they felt the way they did. 

No one is saying that all of them will feel this awful regret, but how often is too much? When they're left potentially sterile and with harm done to their own sexual function?

 

It's brutal when you see the truth of it. 

 

That's the sort of thing that has convinced me that there's more to it.

 

Ritchie Tullip or Kiera Bell? Kiera's re-transitioned the last anyone heard. 

[Thorongil]

It’s deeply disturbing how lobbyists are seeking to remove all safeguards in order to experiment on children for the purposes of ideology. 

If gender dysphoria is not a medical or mental illness then why is the NHS removing peoples’s genitals and giving very young people lifetimes supplies of drugs? 

[parsforlife]

Are you 2(or maybe 1 with 2 accounts) seriously trying to argue about the handful who regret transition and worry about them whilst ignoring the horrific mental health and suicide rates of those that are trans and still feel much more comfortable in their preferred gender?

[Thorongil]

2 minutes ago, Wee Bully said:

You really are an utter scumbag. 

No, I’m not. You just see it that way because you are a narcissist and this causes you to become angry to the very core of your being when you encounter a view that is not in accordance with yours. 

I don’t lie down to narcissists.

[f_c_dundee]

5 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

How, pray tell, do I 'take' a bed on a hospital ward? Surely that would be assigned to me based on where the hospital sees fit to put me? 

No idea. Have you got any figures? However, as LGBTQ+ folks have become more accepted by mainstream society, it's fairly unsurprising you'll start to find more of them as they feel happier to come out publicly. Same way as left-handedness in people went from 2% to 10% when they stopped beating kids for it in schools and then plateaued at 10% because that's the amount of people who are left handed. 

Ok so it's a tiny minority or it's not?

 

The reason hospitals have messed up is yet again due to ambiguity in policies about sex and whether patients should be allowed to stay in a ward in their self identified "gender". 

 

They didn't just come up with the idea by themselves, this has been encouraged into as many organisations as possible, indeed encouraging them to 'get ahead of the law' - self id will be a thing any minute. 

 

The NHS recently took about a year to apologise to a woman who was raped in hospital. They spent a year denying that there had ever been a man in the ward, nope only women. Despite CCTV evidence in the case.  

 

Words like sex, man, women have meaning. 

 

We can't and won't just always agree to ignore these facts to make people feel better, then pretend it's all fine. 

 

It may be a minority of people involved and a minority of cases. It's not zero though, so it can't be hand waved away. 

 

The left handed thing was stupid and discriminatory. No argument there.

 

I was talking about the 'tiny minority" phrase when clearly it's quite different since the umbrella got so much bigger in scope. 

 

 

[f_c_dundee]

12 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Ritchie Tullip or Kiera Bell? Kiera's re-transitioned the last anyone heard. 

Neither actually. Guess what there's more than 2!

 

I'll see if I can find a link if you want. 

[carpetmonster]

1 minute ago, f_c_dundee said:

Ok so it's a tiny minority or it's not?

 

The reason hospitals have messed up is yet again due to ambiguity in policies about sex and whether patients should be allowed to stay in a ward in their self identified "gender". 

 

They didn't just come up with the idea by themselves, this has been encouraged into as many organisations as possible, indeed encouraging them to 'get ahead of the law' - self id will be a thing any minute. 

 

The NHS recently took about a year to apologise to a woman who was raped in hospital. They spent a year denying that there had ever been a man in the ward, nope only women. Despite CCTV evidence in the case.  

 

Words like sex, man, women have meaning. 

 

We can't and won't just always agree to ignore these facts to make people feel better, then pretend it's all fine. 

 

It may be a minority of people involved and a minority of cases. It's not zero though, so it can't be hand waved away. 

 

The left handed thing was stupid and discriminatory. No argument there.

 

I was talking about the 'tiny minority" phrase when clearly it's quite different since the umbrella got so much bigger in scope. 

 

 

Just to confirm then, you're not at all bothered that trans-only facilities would be highly likely to be targeted for violence?

And Ray Blanchard?

[Andy Dufresne]

4 minutes ago, Thorongil said:

No, I’m not. You just see it that way because you are a narcissist and this causes you to become angry to the very core of your being when you encounter a view that is not in accordance with yours. 

I don’t lie down to narcissists.

 

[f_c_dundee]

4 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Are you 2(or maybe 1 with 2 accounts) seriously trying to argue about the handful who regret transition and worry about them whilst ignoring the horrific mental health and suicide rates of those that are trans and still feel much more comfortable in their preferred gender?

Ha, nope I'm just me. Been off this site for a while, due to bairns and stuff interfering with my participation in football waffling. You can see I've had my account for years and just reanimated myself recently for a blether. 

 

About those suicide statistics...

 

Also not true.

 

The oft quoted high figures are from a self selecting survey, with tiny numbers participating, who were asked if they'd ever had suicidal ideation I believe. 

 

What studies do exist show very little long term improvements after transition unfortunately.

 

 

[f_c_dundee]

3 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Just to confirm then, you're not at all bothered that trans-only facilities would be highly likely to be targeted for violence?

And Ray Blanchard?

What are you on about targeted for violence? What violence? Who the heck would care to bother people in their own wards?

 

Just to confirm you've nothing to say about safeguarding issues e.g. the above mentioned rape? 

 

Ray Blanchard, what about him in particular? Give me a clue...?

[carpetmonster]

Just now, f_c_dundee said:

What are you on about targeted for violence? What violence? Who the heck would care to bother people in their own wards?

 

Just to confirm you've nothing to say about safeguarding issues e.g. the above mentioned rape? 

 

Ray Blanchard, what about him in particular? Give me a clue...?

Again, go back and read. This is all stuff I've posted in reply to you directly. 

[f_c_dundee]

No you named a hospital and said it had been targeted. I can only see that there was a lot of chat about it online and they felt harassed by phone calls. Zero actual violence. 

 

I've never heard anything about random violence, so no I'd not have thought of trans only (I also didn't say they had to be trans only, just segregated by sex) facilities being targets for anything. 

[TxRover]

28 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

Ha, nope I'm just me. Been off this site for a while, due to bairns and stuff interfering with my participation in football waffling. You can see I've had my account for years and just reanimated myself recently for a blether. 

 

About those suicide statistics...

 

Also not true.

 

The oft quoted high figures are from a self selecting survey, with tiny numbers participating, who were asked if they'd ever had suicidal ideation I believe. 

 

What studies do exist show very little long term improvements after transition unfortunately.

 

 

Jesus f**king Christ…and exactly what number of child, teen and young adult suicides are you happy with versus the exceptionally rare regret case? 100, 1000, 10000? Come on, give us a number…or back the f**k out of the conversation like you promised.

[f_c_dundee]

None. They should have proper psychological support, like all children who are struggling.

 

Not be terrified into social transition or medical decisions that they could regret.

 

how the feck did you think I didn't care? Based on what I've written. 

 

But those stats are still not accurate. Many of the young people identifying as trans have a lot going on mental health wise, that tends to be almost ignored in favour of focus on the gender identity issues. It's not a better way and many of them are finding it's not a fix the way they thought it would be. 

 

"Horrifying statistics are thrown around without context. Once you search for sources, they fall apart. Take, for example, an endlessly repeated figure of forty-eight percent for the share of young trans people who have attempted suicide. It turns out to be based on the responses of twenty-seven British trans people in a larger survey promoted on LGBT websites. Not only is the number of respondents tiny, but there is no reason to think they are typical (if you want to find out something about a whole population, you must construct a representative sample)"

 

This figure terrified many parents as well. 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by f_c_dundee
Another frickin typo. Should go to sleep really.

[f_c_dundee]

37 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Jesus f**king Christ…and exactly what number of child, teen and young adult suicides are you happy with versus the exceptionally rare regret case? 100, 1000, 10000? Come on, give us a number…or back the f**k out of the conversation like you promised.

I promised nothing.

 

And I already answered that the bit about backing out was an (apparently crappy) attempt at humour, acknowledging the tension in these types of discussion. 

[TxRover]

45 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

None. They should have proper psychological support, like all children who are struggling.

 

Not be terrified into social transition or medical decisions that they could regret.

 

how the feck did you think I didn't care? Based on what I've written. 

 

But those stats are still not accurate. Many of the young people identifying as trans have a lot going on mental health wise, that tends to be almost ignored in favour of focus on the gender identity issues. It's not a better way and many of them are finding it's not a fix the way they thought it would be. 

 

"Horrifying statistics are thrown around without context. Once you search for sources, they fall apart. Take, for example, an endlessly repeated figure of forty-eight percent for the share of young trans people who have attempted suicide. It turns out to be based on the responses of twenty-seven British trans people in a larger survey promoted on LGBT websites. Not only is the number of respondents tiny, but there is no reason to think they are typical (if you want to find out something about a whole population, you must construct a representative sample)"

 

This figure terrified many parents as well. 

 

So the kids that want to delay puberty so as to be able to investigate their feelings and concerns, shouldn’t be able to so they can decide later, but should go through puberty and decide after 18?

With regard to your poo-pooing the suicide statistics, bullshit. Hedegaard, Curtin, & Warner, 2018 was a near 20 year study of youth suicides and risks, covering suicide risks and occurrences within the U.S. teen population during this period (millions), and identifying risk factors and modalities. With a four times risk of suicide, the youth trans population is uniquely vulnerable to your kind of bigoted bullshit camouflaged as “caring” and “science”.

I know you feel you are somehow “helping” by taking over this thread and trying to make it clear we’re all wrong, but you are the problem here.