The Gender Debate

[carpetmonster]

1 minute ago, f_c_dundee said:

If everyone can go and listen to (and I mean listen to an interview) a young person who was affirmed and eventually went on to medically transition, then realised they'd made a terrible mistake and thn say "yup, I'm happy to take that risk" , well I don't know what else to say.

 

In recent years it's swung towards young women and teenagers left with permanently deepened voices and  facial hair, plus having had their healthy breasts removed. Then realising that this treatment hasn't made them feel better at all, but they can't go back and undo any of it. 

They feel let down by the system that never questioned why they felt the way they did. 

No one is saying that all of them will feel this awful regret, but how often is too much? When they're left potentially sterile and with harm done to their own sexual function?

 

It's brutal when you see the truth of it. 

 

That's the sort of thing that has convinced me that there's more to it.

 

Ritchie Tullip or Kiera Bell? Kiera's re-transitioned the last anyone heard. 

[Thorongil]

It’s deeply disturbing how lobbyists are seeking to remove all safeguards in order to experiment on children for the purposes of ideology. 

If gender dysphoria is not a medical or mental illness then why is the NHS removing peoples’s genitals and giving very young people lifetimes supplies of drugs? 

[parsforlife]

Are you 2(or maybe 1 with 2 accounts) seriously trying to argue about the handful who regret transition and worry about them whilst ignoring the horrific mental health and suicide rates of those that are trans and still feel much more comfortable in their preferred gender?

[Thorongil]

2 minutes ago, Wee Bully said:

You really are an utter scumbag. 

No, I’m not. You just see it that way because you are a narcissist and this causes you to become angry to the very core of your being when you encounter a view that is not in accordance with yours. 

I don’t lie down to narcissists.

[f_c_dundee]

5 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

How, pray tell, do I 'take' a bed on a hospital ward? Surely that would be assigned to me based on where the hospital sees fit to put me? 

No idea. Have you got any figures? However, as LGBTQ+ folks have become more accepted by mainstream society, it's fairly unsurprising you'll start to find more of them as they feel happier to come out publicly. Same way as left-handedness in people went from 2% to 10% when they stopped beating kids for it in schools and then plateaued at 10% because that's the amount of people who are left handed. 

Ok so it's a tiny minority or it's not?

 

The reason hospitals have messed up is yet again due to ambiguity in policies about sex and whether patients should be allowed to stay in a ward in their self identified "gender". 

 

They didn't just come up with the idea by themselves, this has been encouraged into as many organisations as possible, indeed encouraging them to 'get ahead of the law' - self id will be a thing any minute. 

 

The NHS recently took about a year to apologise to a woman who was raped in hospital. They spent a year denying that there had ever been a man in the ward, nope only women. Despite CCTV evidence in the case.  

 

Words like sex, man, women have meaning. 

 

We can't and won't just always agree to ignore these facts to make people feel better, then pretend it's all fine. 

 

It may be a minority of people involved and a minority of cases. It's not zero though, so it can't be hand waved away. 

 

The left handed thing was stupid and discriminatory. No argument there.

 

I was talking about the 'tiny minority" phrase when clearly it's quite different since the umbrella got so much bigger in scope. 

 

 

[f_c_dundee]

12 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Ritchie Tullip or Kiera Bell? Kiera's re-transitioned the last anyone heard. 

Neither actually. Guess what there's more than 2!

 

I'll see if I can find a link if you want. 

[carpetmonster]

1 minute ago, f_c_dundee said:

Ok so it's a tiny minority or it's not?

 

The reason hospitals have messed up is yet again due to ambiguity in policies about sex and whether patients should be allowed to stay in a ward in their self identified "gender". 

 

They didn't just come up with the idea by themselves, this has been encouraged into as many organisations as possible, indeed encouraging them to 'get ahead of the law' - self id will be a thing any minute. 

 

The NHS recently took about a year to apologise to a woman who was raped in hospital. They spent a year denying that there had ever been a man in the ward, nope only women. Despite CCTV evidence in the case.  

 

Words like sex, man, women have meaning. 

 

We can't and won't just always agree to ignore these facts to make people feel better, then pretend it's all fine. 

 

It may be a minority of people involved and a minority of cases. It's not zero though, so it can't be hand waved away. 

 

The left handed thing was stupid and discriminatory. No argument there.

 

I was talking about the 'tiny minority" phrase when clearly it's quite different since the umbrella got so much bigger in scope. 

 

 

Just to confirm then, you're not at all bothered that trans-only facilities would be highly likely to be targeted for violence?

And Ray Blanchard?

[Andy Dufresne]

4 minutes ago, Thorongil said:

No, I’m not. You just see it that way because you are a narcissist and this causes you to become angry to the very core of your being when you encounter a view that is not in accordance with yours. 

I don’t lie down to narcissists.

 

[f_c_dundee]

4 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Are you 2(or maybe 1 with 2 accounts) seriously trying to argue about the handful who regret transition and worry about them whilst ignoring the horrific mental health and suicide rates of those that are trans and still feel much more comfortable in their preferred gender?

Ha, nope I'm just me. Been off this site for a while, due to bairns and stuff interfering with my participation in football waffling. You can see I've had my account for years and just reanimated myself recently for a blether. 

 

About those suicide statistics...

 

Also not true.

 

The oft quoted high figures are from a self selecting survey, with tiny numbers participating, who were asked if they'd ever had suicidal ideation I believe. 

 

What studies do exist show very little long term improvements after transition unfortunately.

 

 

[f_c_dundee]

3 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Just to confirm then, you're not at all bothered that trans-only facilities would be highly likely to be targeted for violence?

And Ray Blanchard?

What are you on about targeted for violence? What violence? Who the heck would care to bother people in their own wards?

 

Just to confirm you've nothing to say about safeguarding issues e.g. the above mentioned rape? 

 

Ray Blanchard, what about him in particular? Give me a clue...?

[carpetmonster]

Just now, f_c_dundee said:

What are you on about targeted for violence? What violence? Who the heck would care to bother people in their own wards?

 

Just to confirm you've nothing to say about safeguarding issues e.g. the above mentioned rape? 

 

Ray Blanchard, what about him in particular? Give me a clue...?

Again, go back and read. This is all stuff I've posted in reply to you directly. 

[f_c_dundee]

No you named a hospital and said it had been targeted. I can only see that there was a lot of chat about it online and they felt harassed by phone calls. Zero actual violence. 

 

I've never heard anything about random violence, so no I'd not have thought of trans only (I also didn't say they had to be trans only, just segregated by sex) facilities being targets for anything. 

[TxRover]

28 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

Ha, nope I'm just me. Been off this site for a while, due to bairns and stuff interfering with my participation in football waffling. You can see I've had my account for years and just reanimated myself recently for a blether. 

 

About those suicide statistics...

 

Also not true.

 

The oft quoted high figures are from a self selecting survey, with tiny numbers participating, who were asked if they'd ever had suicidal ideation I believe. 

 

What studies do exist show very little long term improvements after transition unfortunately.

 

 

Jesus f**king Christ…and exactly what number of child, teen and young adult suicides are you happy with versus the exceptionally rare regret case? 100, 1000, 10000? Come on, give us a number…or back the f**k out of the conversation like you promised.

[f_c_dundee]

None. They should have proper psychological support, like all children who are struggling.

 

Not be terrified into social transition or medical decisions that they could regret.

 

how the feck did you think I didn't care? Based on what I've written. 

 

But those stats are still not accurate. Many of the young people identifying as trans have a lot going on mental health wise, that tends to be almost ignored in favour of focus on the gender identity issues. It's not a better way and many of them are finding it's not a fix the way they thought it would be. 

 

"Horrifying statistics are thrown around without context. Once you search for sources, they fall apart. Take, for example, an endlessly repeated figure of forty-eight percent for the share of young trans people who have attempted suicide. It turns out to be based on the responses of twenty-seven British trans people in a larger survey promoted on LGBT websites. Not only is the number of respondents tiny, but there is no reason to think they are typical (if you want to find out something about a whole population, you must construct a representative sample)"

 

This figure terrified many parents as well. 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by f_c_dundee
Another frickin typo. Should go to sleep really.

[f_c_dundee]

37 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Jesus f**king Christ…and exactly what number of child, teen and young adult suicides are you happy with versus the exceptionally rare regret case? 100, 1000, 10000? Come on, give us a number…or back the f**k out of the conversation like you promised.

I promised nothing.

 

And I already answered that the bit about backing out was an (apparently crappy) attempt at humour, acknowledging the tension in these types of discussion. 

[TxRover]

45 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

None. They should have proper psychological support, like all children who are struggling.

 

Not be terrified into social transition or medical decisions that they could regret.

 

how the feck did you think I didn't care? Based on what I've written. 

 

But those stats are still not accurate. Many of the young people identifying as trans have a lot going on mental health wise, that tends to be almost ignored in favour of focus on the gender identity issues. It's not a better way and many of them are finding it's not a fix the way they thought it would be. 

 

"Horrifying statistics are thrown around without context. Once you search for sources, they fall apart. Take, for example, an endlessly repeated figure of forty-eight percent for the share of young trans people who have attempted suicide. It turns out to be based on the responses of twenty-seven British trans people in a larger survey promoted on LGBT websites. Not only is the number of respondents tiny, but there is no reason to think they are typical (if you want to find out something about a whole population, you must construct a representative sample)"

 

This figure terrified many parents as well. 

 

So the kids that want to delay puberty so as to be able to investigate their feelings and concerns, shouldn’t be able to so they can decide later, but should go through puberty and decide after 18?

With regard to your poo-pooing the suicide statistics, bullshit. Hedegaard, Curtin, & Warner, 2018 was a near 20 year study of youth suicides and risks, covering suicide risks and occurrences within the U.S. teen population during this period (millions), and identifying risk factors and modalities. With a four times risk of suicide, the youth trans population is uniquely vulnerable to your kind of bigoted bullshit camouflaged as “caring” and “science”.

I know you feel you are somehow “helping” by taking over this thread and trying to make it clear we’re all wrong, but you are the problem here.

 

[vikingTON]

6 hours ago, TxRover said:

So the kids that want to delay puberty so as to be able to investigate their feelings and concerns, shouldn’t be able to so they can decide later, but should go through puberty and decide after 18?

Puberty blocking medication is not some magical delay button - it has significant health and reproductive consequences on the patient. 

The idea that 12 year olds or any other legal child is automatically in a position to know what they want and should be given a highly consequential medical intervention based on that is utter folly. We rightly recognise that they are not fully capable of making legally responsible decisions - yet the Mermaids crew argue that they're inherently knowledgeable about their own body transition because reasons. That is an ideology of harm, right there. 

Any PB intervention should require the consent of the child's legal guardian and, much more importantly, an independent psychological assessment of the child's situation:

https://acpuk.org.uk/the-cass-review-and-its-implications-psychologically-informed-considerations-for-the-future/

[f_c_dundee]

I'm not desperate to help or whatever or indeed trying to take over.

 

Just doing the same as you. Stating my opinions, refuting things that are stated all the time, but don't hold up.

 

No I don't think they should be allowed to delay puberty of children for dysphoria as standard practice. It's not a harmless pause as it was sold. Even the NHS has had to change that kind of wording on information pages. The damage to developing bone density and the unknown effects on brain development alone should be cause for concern. It's an experiment, with no knowledge of long term outcomes and should never have been adopted as normal practice. 

 

These are powerful drugs - even adults who have to take Lupron report serious side effects.  For rare cases of precocious puberty where it is used, it's for a controlled period of time and for as short a time as possible. 

 

Although research in the area was almost actively discouraged in recent years, there is no overwhelming good evidence in the available studies, it's all contradictory and again or poor quality. Particularly when so many young people were lost to follow up and not chased up. 

 

There is some evidence that when children are allowed to go through the "wrong" puberty, the vast majority find that their gender dysphoria resolves over time. 

 

I'm sure you know what % of children in the UK went on to cross sex hormones after being on the PBs? Almost all of them. How can children ever understand the potential consequences of sterility and loss of normal sexual function (which they've obviously never experienced due to being children)? They can't, of course. 

 

Why do you think the hit the fan at the gender clinic at the Tavistock? Have you read the recent book "Time to think" for example? So many poorly conducted reviews suppressed and staff concerns about harm to the young patients dismissed. The clinic simply could not provide the requested data when the court asked for it or in some cases would not. 

 

Then  released the results the day after a court case, showing that 98 % of study participants proceeded onto cross sex hormones and that PBs had not improved their psychological well-being.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by f_c_dundee

[Bairnardo]

Has this "Dundee fan" signed up to a Scottish football forum to relentlessly fill a Gender Debate thread? If ever there was a clear signal to ignore someone......

[f_c_dundee]

43 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Has this "Dundee fan" signed up to a Scottish football forum to relentlessly fill a Gender Debate thread? If ever there was a clear signal to ignore someone......

Look at my profile and/or read the thread. There's been a big gap but I've been a member for years, then got a bit busy with being a mum and various things.

 

I came back on the other day for the first time in years, then foolishly got sidetracked into the Politics forum. 

 

It might suit you to ignore me if you don't agree, but no I've not just signed up. 

 

*Loving the idea that I predicted this thread topic in 2007 and signed up though

Edited April 11, 2023 by f_c_dundee