The Gender Debate

[vikingTON]

Another complete and utter word salad. You were the one declared the four folk with a glorified blog to be the "foremost authority" on genocide prevention - do your homework before making such a rip-roaring c**t of yourself.

Thanks for playing anyway. 

[carpetmonster]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

Another complete and utter word salad. You were the one declared the four folk with a glorified blog to be the "foremost authority" on genocide prevention - do your homework before making such a rip-roaring c**t of yourself.

Thanks for playing anyway. 

I'll remember who the big noise is at the cracker factory next time, no worries. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Extremely cursed thread.

[Donathan]

I’ve been thinking about this issue a lot recently and when I racked my brain, I can’t think of any other social issues where the UK public became less progressive when they gained a greater understanding of the issue. This is the only one.

 

Think back to two decades ago. Hayley Cropper was a popular character in coronation street and Nadia Almeida won big brother. There’s an example of two trans women, one fictional and one real, who captured the hearts of the UK public.

 

A couple of decades ago, though, a transsexual person was the definition of choice, implying that the person had physically transitioned from male to female or vice versa.

 

Nowadays, transgender has replaced transsexual as the term of choice to describe trans individuals and becoming one is as simple as sticking different close on and presenting yourself as the gender of choice.

 

Rightly or wrongly I think this is where a lot of the public draw the line. I think a lot of the gender critical types would happily see those who have been been medically approved and physically transitioned using the public spaces that correspond to their new gender, but self defined transgender people who have not had the surgery yet (if they ever even plan to), not so much.

 

I think that’s why the public view of trans rights has gone down. 

[f_c_dundee]

35 minutes ago, Donathan said:

I’ve been thinking about this issue a lot recently and when I racked my brain, I can’t think of any other social issues where the UK public became less progressive when they gained a greater understanding of the issue. This is the only one.

 

Think back to two decades ago. Hayley Cropper was a popular character in coronation street and Nadia Almeida won big brother. There’s an example of two trans women, one fictional and one real, who captured the hearts of the UK public.

 

A couple of decades ago, though, a transsexual person was the definition of choice, implying that the person had physically transitioned from male to female or vice versa.

 

Nowadays, transgender has replaced transsexual as the term of choice to describe trans individuals and becoming one is as simple as sticking different close on and presenting yourself as the gender of choice.

 

Rightly or wrongly I think this is where a lot of the public draw the line. I think a lot of the gender critical types would happily see those who have been been medically approved and physically transitioned using the public spaces that correspond to their new gender, but self defined transgender people who have not had the surgery yet (if they ever even plan to), not so much.

 

I think that’s why the public view of trans rights has gone down. 

Note that Hayley Cropper was played by a female actor, wonder why?

Sharron Davies sharing James Esses deconstruction of 'Emily' Bridges batshit statement...

https://twitter.com/sharrond62/status/1662208608124149762?t=S1jQUwqPAZn-GNzy66Q5Kg&s=09

 

No trans person is banned from competing, they just have to compete in their own sex class like everyone else

 

Do you know the % of trans people who have "the surgery" as you put it? It's probably a lot lower than you think...

Much more common to have silicon chest implants or facial feminisation procedures and keep the tackle.

 

Don't blame them - genital surgery on both men and women has horrendous rates of complications

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by f_c_dundee

[Theroadlesstravelled]

 

https://twitter.com/Morgan_C_Ross/status/1630035343238938624?s=20

[Theroadlesstravelled]

I see a lot of white upper, middle class kids are getting into it.

Attention is more valuable than gold.

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

I see a lot of white upper, middle class kids are getting into it.

Attention is more valuable than gold.

Really, because that’s not what I’m seeing in real life right now. I love your willingness to dismiss this as an attention gathering ploy. As for the resident qualified historian, and his return to his dismissive form as soon as he finds a poster he can’t bully, I also notice he’s found some red dotting friends.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

50 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Really, because that’s not what I’m seeing in real life right now. I love your willingness to dismiss this as an attention gathering ploy. As for the resident qualified historian, and his return to his dismissive form as soon as he finds a poster he can’t bully, I also notice he’s found some red dotting friends.

Everything on social media is an attention seeking ploy. People would literally do anything for a Like.

[GAD]

41 minutes ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

Everything on social media is an attention seeking ploy. People would literally do anything for a Like.

I mean, just look at all your posts on here.

[carpetmonster]

The I unimpressed with Channel 4’s upcoming Gender Wars

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/channel-4s-gender-wars-fails-both-women-and-trans-people-while-missing-the-real-story-2371146

[andyg83]

2 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

The I unimpressed with Channel 4’s upcoming Gender Wars

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/channel-4s-gender-wars-fails-both-women-and-trans-people-while-missing-the-real-story-2371146

This isnae really a review though is it? It's an opinion piece under the guise of a review?

I might give it a watch anyway as long as Matt Walsh,  Helen Joyce,  James Esses, the boy that wrote Father Ted, JK Rowling, Piers Morgan, Justin Pieterson etc etc are on it. 

Then again maybe not. 

[f_c_dundee]

On 25/05/2023 at 14:01, Mr Waldo said:

 

Woman

an adult who lives and identifies as female though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth

 My Oxford English Dictionary 

Female

1. of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.

    

So to me, a

• trans woman is an adult human who lives and identifies as a person that can bear offspring...
• woman is an adult human  that can bear offspring...

I've just realised that on asking the what is a woman question,the leaders of the three biggest parties in England all give 3 different answers?  Is it any wonder people are scratching there head?

Pic below of my early 2000s paper dictionary which agrees.

Do we all have to go along with it, because the dictionary companies caved and added an additional definition for man/woman?  (the original definition is still the first one listed)

 

[Theroadlesstravelled]

A Buzzfeed News pundit writing an opinion piece criticizing others for not keeping up with the times. No wonder legacy media is done for.

I’ll pass thanks.

[Zern]

For "the dictionary companies caved" read; they updated themselves, as they are wont to do. Regularly.

New words list March 2022 | Oxford English Dictionary (oed.com)

Its almost as if a dictionary is a descriptive list of words and meanings in common usage and the only thing forcing them to update is people using and accepting the terms.

Oh and from that link i can show you this:

gender critical adj.
(a) critical of traditional beliefs about gender, esp. based on the perspective of gender feminism (gender feminism n.);

(b) critical of the concept of gender identity, or the belief that gender identity outweighs or is more significant than biological sex.

That 2nd definition, only added in 2018.

 

[f_c_dundee]

6 minutes ago, Zern said:

For "the dictionary companies caved" read; they updated themselves, as they are wont to do. Regularly.

New words list March 2022 | Oxford English Dictionary (oed.com)

Its almost as if a dictionary is a descriptive list of words and meanings in common usage and the only thing forcing them to update is people using and accepting the terms.

Oh and from that link i can show you this:

gender critical adj.
(a) critical of traditional beliefs about gender, esp. based on the perspective of gender feminism (gender feminism n.);

(b) critical of the concept of gender identity, or the belief that gender identity outweighs or is more significant than biological sex.

It's really no a good look to pretend that you think posters are just *so stupid* that they are unaware of common things like the fact that new words and phrases are added to dictionaries. Lot of that on this thread.

Man / Woman are not new words though.  They are old words that already had a clearly defined and important meaning, to identify the sex of humans.  Now we have added to the existing dictionary entry, a definition for men/women that includes members of the other group.

Helpful how?

If a definition of woman/man includes the phrase "person who identifies as a woman/man", that is rather circular is it not? 

 

Men + some women who identify as men = men

women + some men who identify as women = women

(War = Peace

Freedom = Slavery

Ignorance = Strength

2 + 2 =5

  )

6 minutes ago, Zern said:

That 2nd definition, only added in 2018.

 

Because up until 10 or 15 years ago, the concept of gender identity was having very little impact on wider society, confined mostly to affecting those with the condition formerly known as 'gender identity disorder'.  2018 was the year that the consultations pushing for self ID forced women (mostly), to campaign more widely to point out the obvious potential issues.

Feminists being critical of both gender stereotypes and the concept of gender identity superceding sex.

[andyg83]

8 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

The I unimpressed with Channel 4’s upcoming Gender Wars

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/channel-4s-gender-wars-fails-both-women-and-trans-people-while-missing-the-real-story-2371146

Big Rowling wades in on this one it seems. 

 

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1663272294070865925?s=20

[Zern]

17 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

It's really no a good look to pretend that you think posters are just *so stupid* that they are unaware of common things like the fact that new words and phrases are added to dictionaries. Lot of that on this thread.

Man / Woman are not new words though.  They are old words that already had a clearly defined and important meaning, to identify the sex of humans.  Now we have added to the existing dictionary entry, a definition for men/women that includes members of the other group.

Helpful how?

If a definition of woman/man includes the phrase "person who identifies as a woman/man", that is rather circular is it not? 

 

Men + some women who identify as men = men

women + some men who identify as women = women

(War = Peace

Freedom = Slavery

Ignorance = Strength

2 + 2 =5

  )

Because up until 10 or 15 years ago, the concept of gender identity was having very little impact on wider society, confined mostly to affecting those with the condition formerly known as 'gender identity disorder'.  2018 was the year that the consultations pushing for self ID forced women (mostly), to campaign more widely to point out the obvious potential issues.

Feminists being critical of both gender stereotypes and the concept of gender identity superceding sex.

Well, when someone claims that the additional meaning was added due to "the dictionaries caving" i can only deduce that they are unaware of how dictionaries operate. Are you able to provide any evidence for you claim? Or is this more conspiratorial muttering on you part?

Yes, the term is imprecise. Circular even. That's because language is imprecise, general and not a philosophical treatise. Our ideas of what 'man' and 'woman' has changed as our culture has changed.

Gender-bending is nothing new, we've always had stories where man passes as a woman and vice-versa. We've always used that to p***k the norms of society. Shakespeare is an obvious touchstone, and one that becomes all the more interesting when you realise that women where not allowed to act in the theatre so ALL his women where in fact played by men.

[carpetmonster]

12 minutes ago, andyg83 said:

Big Rowling wades in on this one it seems. 

 

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1663272294070865925?s=20

She might wanna check this bit - 'Actual Nazis have turned up on the fringes of Let Women Speak events' - one of the guys from the National Socialist Network, they who were sieg heiling at Keen's Melbourne rally - reckons they were invited in to Keen's side 'by the organisers'

https://twitter.com/tesshall/status/1663284160377819136

 

[Zern]

17 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

She might wanna check this bit - 'Actual Nazis have turned up on the fringes of Let Women Speak events' - one of the guys from the National Socialist Network, they who were sieg heiling at Keen's Melbourne rally - reckons they were invited in to Keen's side 'by the organisers'

https://twitter.com/tesshall/status/1663284160377819136

 

It's really hard to maintain the facade of being the "good guys" when the "baddies" turn up and start saluting your speeches.