The Gender Debate

[andyg83]

1 hour ago, itzdrk said:

Folk still twisting themselves in knots to explain why it's ok to be bigoted to this one group? 

It's not really one group though is it? That's kinda the point. It's a bit of a mess. 

[Mr Waldo]

4 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

The entire movie is free to access on YouTube, should you be interested in watching the movie and not just turning up to make a show of yourself on the camera.

Wait, a film that gets past YouTube u18 censorship is too 'controversial' to be discussed at the very place debates should take place?

Time to Think by Hannah Barnes, who seems a non-shouty type, explores Tavistock and how their first response to anywayone not liking their body, or attracted to the same sex was to tell them the are transgender and give them puberty blockers.  No wonder it's closing.  I am sure if she made it up, she'll get sued.

Unfortunately if you are concerned about these children, you seem to a a Toryfacistnazibigot.

 

[vikingTON]

3 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

You get used to what you're used to. It took Eddie Izzard 20 plus years of cross dressing on national TV before she said aight, I'm a woman. I'm sure we're both old enough to remember STRAIGHT ACTING!!! being at the top of most of the WLTM classies in the Evening Times. 

What does any of this nonsense have to do with... well anything at all? 

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If that's true, then it doesn't fit into the current panic where F2M trans people are essentially ignored, and mostly painted as confused lesbians on the rare occasions they're acknowledged. There's very little coverage of Patricio Manuel vs Lia Thomas, or the trans woman who finished 6130th (might be out here) at this weekend's London Marathon. 

Again, completely irrelevant to my post. 

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No we can't. However, we're less than 30 years from the first diagnosis of autism as being a spectrum disorder. As I've already said, I don't believe the evidence vis a vis the very low rates of detransitioning and the even lower rates of regret around gender affirming care represent that 'mindless affirmation' is actually happening. 

What's your supposed 'point' regarding ASD? Why are ASD children 20x more likely to present with gender dysphoria, if our current handling of the issue merely represents the inherent gender identity that all children and adults hold?

[carpetmonster]

2 hours ago, virginton said:

What does any of this nonsense have to do with... well anything at all? 

That as things become more socially acceptable, people will become more open about them. It's a good thing. See that 'confirmed bachelors' have mostly died out. I'm sure you know this tho. 

2 hours ago, virginton said:

Again, completely irrelevant to my post. 

It's not, I answered that point directly. 

2 hours ago, virginton said:

What's your supposed 'point' regarding ASD? Why are ASD children 20x more likely to present with gender dysphoria, if our current handling of the issue merely represents the inherent gender identity that all children and adults hold?

I haven't said anyone has an inherent gender. Again - and it's your normal tactic - you hit upon a wee buzzword by yourself, think it sounds clever, and decide you're going to shove it on other people. From this graph - and it's from The Times, given your concern that folks bothsides everything - it looks like safely over 10,000 patients were referred to the Tavistock over the course of a decade, yet only 1,000 were prescribed any sort of medical intervention. I'm not sure why ASD kids are more likely to present as trans, which I've explained before. The medical field don't seem to be either  - https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/the-link-between-autism-and-trans-identity/507509/

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by carpetmonster

[carpetmonster]

2 hours ago, andyg83 said:

It's not really one group though is it? That's kinda the point. It's a bit of a mess. 

Mostly at the moment, it is. Should the move prove successful, it'll spread. Walsh explained it in a tweet '"Here's what we should do: Pick a victim, gang up on it, and make an example of it. We can't boycott every woke company or even most of them. But we can pick one, it hardly matters which, and target it with a ruthless boycott campaign. Claim one scalp then move onto the next," Walsh tweeted.'

[carpetmonster]

4 hours ago, f_c_dundee said:

The event yesterday was also to involve a discussion according to the organisers, so that's a wee bit of a twisted interpretation.  No show or drama would occur though, if you didn't have people blocking them from attending a film showing and being allowed to talk... 

Stay at home and watch YouTube wimmin!

No of course not. The problem isn't the guy who spends most of his time accusing trans people of being paedophiles on social media, it's the people who object to him being platformed. There's no way, in this day and age, for folks to have a discussion without being face to face. I haven't referred to any gender in that post; I know you're as desperate to paint yourself as the victim as VT is to win an argument on the internet but nah, sorry. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by carpetmonster

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Mr Waldo said:

Wait, a film that gets past YouTube u18 censorship is too 'controversial' to be discussed at the very place debates should take place?

Time to Think by Hannah Barnes, who seems a non-shouty type, explores Tavistock and how their first response to anywayone not liking their body, or attracted to the same sex was to tell them the are transgender and give them puberty blockers.  No wonder it's closing.  I am sure if she made it up, she'll get sued.

Unfortunately if you are concerned about these children, you seem to a a Toryfacistnazibigot.

 

Don't let the haters win. For every name they call you, you grow a little stronger. All that matters is your journey and your truth.

[f_c_dundee]

1 hour ago, carpetmonster said:

No of course not. The problem isn't the guy who spends most of his time accusing trans people of being paedophiles on social media, it's the people who object to him being platformed. There's no way, in this day and age, for folks to have a discussion without being face to face. I haven't referred to any gender in that post; I know you're as desperate to paint yourself as the victim as VT is to win an argument on the internet but nah, sorry. 

No one is painting anyone as victim, where did you get that?

 

What I said was without the protest blocking it, "people watched a film" would be a really shit news story. The protest created the drama. 

 

[carpetmonster]

8 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

No one is painting anyone as victim, where did you get that?

 

What I said was without the protest blocking it, "people watched a film" would be a really shit news story. The protest created the drama. 

 

You’re attempting to portray me as being misogynistic by the phrase ‘stay at home and watch YouTube, wimmin’ and the wee emoji. 
 

You didn’t. You accused me of being disingenuous by missing out that there was apparently to be a discussion after the film, which I wasn’t aware of. However, should Matt Walsh being allowed to spout hate - and no, I haven’t seen the movie, I’m just making an educated guess based on the rest of his entire life’s oeuvre - not be protested by those in his firing line? By the same logic it’s those who oppose Orange Walks/Britain First demos being the issue rather than the groups themselves. 
 

I’m sure you’ll correct me by shifting the goalposts again and telling me I’m a big silly and lots more . Go for your life; I’m getting all nostalgic, it’s like Oaksoft was never binned. 

[andyg83]

2 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

Mostly at the moment, it is. Should the move prove successful, it'll spread. Walsh explained it in a tweet '"Here's what we should do: Pick a victim, gang up on it, and make an example of it. We can't boycott every woke company or even most of them. But we can pick one, it hardly matters which, and target it with a ruthless boycott campaign. Claim one scalp then move onto the next," Walsh 

I couldnt care less about Matt Walsh, he's a roaster.

The point is that the Trans "community" is not like a single homogenous group is it? I think everyone agrees with that ffs. It's now a real mish mash of people and issues at play. 

There are aspects of it that cause concern and aspects that don't.  But you already knew that. 

[carpetmonster]

46 minutes ago, andyg83 said:

I couldnt care less about Matt Walsh, he's a roaster.

The point is that the Trans "community" is not like a single homogenous group is it? I think everyone agrees with that ffs. It's now a real mish mash of people and issues at play. 
 

Yes, it’s almost like we should treat people as individuals rather than VT’s mysterious ‘self-ID lobby’. Who are they? Katy Montgomerie and India Willoughby? The Scottish Parliament? The Irish government? However, community is a fairly common way to refer to a group of people that at least have one thing in common, whether that be trans people, Protestants or Detroit Pistons fans, so I’m not sure that sticking it in inverted commas makes much dramatic effect. 

46 minutes ago, andyg83 said:

There are aspects of it that cause concern and aspects that don't.  But you already knew that. 

Like drag queens in schools. Except the one you pointed to was apparently a repeat performance - with no such brouhaha the first time round - requested by the kids themselves. She seems dressed in a fairly standard panto dame kinda manner from the pics - https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/drag-queen-scared-walk-streets-21591048?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target - and apparently the complaints stemmed from parents finding adult natured posts on her Instagram, rather than anything in the performance to the kids. To which, of course, the answer would be ‘I’d really hope you’re not letting your 6 year old on Instagram.’

Edited April 27, 2023 by carpetmonster

[andyg83]

1 hour ago, carpetmonster said:

Yes, it’s almost like we should treat people as individuals rather than VT’s mysterious ‘self-ID lobby’. Who are they? Katy Montgomerie and India Willoughby? The Scottish Parliament? The Irish government? However, community is a fairly common way to refer to a group of people that at least have one thing in common, whether that be trans people, Protestants or Detroit Pistons fans, so I’m not sure that sticking it in inverted commas makes much dramatic effect. 

Like drag queens in schools. Except the one you pointed to was apparently a repeat performance - with no such brouhaha the first time round - requested by the kids themselves. She seems dressed in a fairly standard panto dame kinda manner from the pics - https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/drag-queen-scared-walk-streets-21591048?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target - and apparently the complaints stemmed from parents finding adult natured posts on her Instagram, rather than anything in the performance to the kids. To which, of course, the answer would be ‘I’d really hope you’re not letting your 6 year old on Instagram.’

Dear lord. This is something else. 

[carpetmonster]

6 minutes ago, andyg83 said:

Dear lord. This is something else. 

In what way? 

[strichener]

On 19/04/2023 at 19:09, Bully Wee Villa said:

Trolling and generally making the forum unreadable.

I'll just leave this here.

[vikingTON]

6 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

That as things become more socially acceptable, people will become more open about them. It's a good thing. See that 'confirmed bachelors' have mostly died out. I'm sure you know this tho. 

If the surge in cases was being driven by social openness, then there'd be a surge across all age groups. What with the 'confirmed bachelors' in your tenuous analogy recategorising themselves after years of repression.

But the figures don't bear that out. Instead, the surge is taking place chiefly among a subgroup of children who are highly vulnerable to psychological anxiety as well as social media confirmation bias. 

And yet this is represented as a phenomenon to be affirmed rather than challenged. 

Quote

 

I haven't said anyone has an inherent gender. Again - and it's your normal tactic - you hit upon a wee buzzword by yourself, think it sounds clever, and decide you're going to shove it on other people.

I didn't say inherent gender - I said inherent gender identity. That is indeed the hill on which the trans rights activists are currently willing to die on: that children are inherently more knowledgeable about their own experience of gender than any external observer, and so any desire for social and medical transition must not be challenged. That's the fundamental principle of self-ID. 

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From this graph - and it's from The Times, given your concern that folks bothsides everything - it looks like safely over 10,000 patients were referred to the Tavistock over the course of a decade, yet only 1,000 were prescribed any sort of medical intervention. I'm not sure why ASD kids are more likely to present as trans, which I've explained before.

ASD kids aren't just 'more likely' to present as trans in the past decade, they're massively more likely - being overrepresented by a factor of 20 compared to their age cohort. And yet there was no such wild correlation between ASD and gender dysphoria just ten or twenty years ago. 

That trans rights activists are perfectly willing to throw a socially vulnerable category of children under a bus in the name of their secular belief system is abhorrent.  That you are willing to deflect away by arguing that it's 'only' hundreds rather than thousands facing potential medical harm is barely one step above that.

[vikingTON]

3 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

Yes, it’s almost like we should treat people as individuals rather than VT’s mysterious ‘self-ID lobby’. Who are they? Katy Montgomerie and India Willoughby? The Scottish Parliament? The Irish government? However, community is a fairly common way to refer to a group of people that at least have one thing in common, whether that be trans people, Protestants or Detroit Pistons fans, so I’m not sure that sticking it in inverted commas makes much dramatic effect. 

Last time I checked Detroit Pistons fans weren't shutting down free debate on academic campuses and other fundamental spaces of intellectual discourse because they weren't happy with what is being shown or discussed. 

Though your Protestant description is quite apt for a secular variety of zealots who attempt to shut down any scrutiny and impose their entirely abstract worldview on the rest of society. 

[carpetmonster]

3 minutes ago, virginton said:

If the surge in cases was being driven by social openness, then there'd be a surge across all age groups. What with the 'confirmed bachelors' in your tenuous analogy recategorising themselves after years of repression.

But the figures don't bear that out. Instead, the surge is taking place chiefly among a subgroup of children who are highly vulnerable to psychological anxiety as well as social media confirmation bias. 

And yet this is represented as a phenomenon to be affirmed rather than challenged. 

I didn't say inherent gender - I said inherent gender identity. That is indeed the hill on which the trans rights activists are currently willing to die on: that children are inherently more knowledgeable about their own experience of gender than any external observer, and so any desire for social and medical transition must not be challenged. That's the fundamental principle of self-ID. 

ASD kids aren't just 'more likely' to present as trans in the past decade, they're massively more likely - being overrepresented by a factor of 20 compared to their age cohort. And yet there was no such wild correlation between ASD and gender dysphoria just ten or twenty years ago. 

That trans rights activists are perfectly willing to throw a socially vulnerable category of children under a bus in the name of their secular belief system is abhorrent.  That you are willing to deflect away by arguing that it's 'only' hundreds rather than thousands facing potential medical harm is barely one step above that.

What bus are they being thrown under? Being autistic isn’t a problem to be fixed. Being trans isn’t a problem to be fixed. You’re one step off ‘they’re coming for your children’. 

[vikingTON]

Just now, carpetmonster said:

What bus are they being thrown under? Being autistic isn’t a problem to be fixed. Being trans isn’t a problem to be fixed. You’re one step off ‘they’re coming for your children’. 

Experiencing completely unnecessary psychological harm and undergoing complex medical procedures to transition gender based on an incoherent grasp of gender identity is indeed being 'thrown under a bus'. 

Given the absence of any medical causation between the two conditions, we can infer that the vast majority of children presenting as trans are not in fact experiencing gender dysphoria. That intervention is an unnecessary medical harm being done to legal minors in the name of 'progress'. 

[carpetmonster]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

Last time I checked Detroit Pistons fans weren't shutting down free debate on academic campuses and other fundamental spaces of intellectual discourse because they weren't happy with what is being shown or discussed. 

Though your Protestant description is quite apt for a secular variety of zealots who attempt to shut down any scrutiny and impose their entirely abstract worldview on the rest of society. 

The movie is on YouTube. Gender criticals are never out of the newspapers or off the television. Nobody is being silenced. ‘You’re a man in a dress’ is not intellectual discourse by my standards although it may well be by yours. 

The ideologies of the likes of Walsh are leading to a democratically elected representative not being allowed to speak for her constituents. They’re leading to Miami’s favorite resident, Dwyane Wade, leaving Florida because his family ‘does not feel comfortable there’. 

[carpetmonster]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

Experiencing completely unnecessary psychological harm and undergoing complex medical procedures to transition gender based on an incoherent grasp of gender identity is indeed being 'thrown under a bus'. 

Given the absence of any medical causation between the two conditions, we can infer that the vast majority of children presenting as trans are not in fact experiencing gender dysphoria. That intervention is an unnecessary medical harm being done to legal minors in the name of 'progress'. 

Rates of detransition are extremely low. Rates of regret around gender affirming care are lower still. Good to know you can speak for autistic people because they’re ‘incoherent’ tho.