The Gender Debate

[DeeTillEhDeh]

47 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

Have given FCD a week off to enjoy her holiday.

Thank god - my eyes are bleeding.

[Salt n Vinegar]

3 hours ago, f_c_dundee said:

stereotypes are all shite and I don't subscribe to them at all...

Have you just stereotyped stereotypes? Are ALL stereotypes shite? .

Sorry, the pedant in me couldn't resist it.

Still not sure where I stand on this issue TBH.

I'm not in favour of those who were born and grew up "male" competing against "females" in many sports. I'm not to concerned about non contact sports like snooker or darts, but athletics, football, rugby etc? Emmm .. no.  I know an early 20s female who wants to be known as male, but that's about as far as my knowledge of individuals goes.

I'm still unclear about who enforces access to single sex places. I read the other day about pressure from some members of the Women's Institute (IIRC) not being happy to admit trans women. Apparently the sex at birth is their focus and they want the rules changed to reflect that view. How they would react to a trans man who despite being born 'female' turned up with a beard and male dress I have no idea. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Salt n Vinegar
Typo

[Theroadlesstravelled]

3 hours ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

Have given FCD a week off to enjoy her holiday.

 

[MrWorldwideJr]

2 hours ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

I'm still unclear about who enforces access to single sex places. I read the other day about pressure from some members of the Women's Institute (IIRC) not being happy to admit trans women. Apparently the sex at birth is their focus and they want the rules changed to reflect that view. How they would react to a trans man who despite being born 'female' turned up with a beard and male dress I have no idea. 

Worth pointing out here that the Women's Institute have said that they have no intention of changing their policy regarding trans women.

They have been admitting trans women as members since the 1970s - its another good example (similar to bathrooms) of the current 'hot topic' issues involving trans inclusion having actually been in place for decades and causing no problems.

2 hours ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

I'm not in favour of those who were born and grew up "male" competing against "females" in many sports. I'm not to concerned about non contact sports like snooker or darts, but athletics, football, rugby etc? Emmm .. no.  I know an early 20s female who wants to be known as male, but that's about as far as my knowledge of individuals goes.

I appreciate that this is the natural reaction, but its a bit more of a complex issue than it first appears. Post medical transition, the body of a trans women is majorly different from the body of a cis man, and not just in terms of any surgery they might undergo. Its not just a case of a trans woman in essence having a male body and all the sporting advantage that would entail.

The process of going through hormone therapy makes major changes to your body and how it operates, including (in the case of a trans woman) reducing your muscle mass and therefore your strength. Take a look at this link for some of the effects of hormone therapy, obviously a lot of them don't relate to sport but it gives you an idea that after a couple of years your body is really fundamentally different to how it was before. For the opposite reason to this a trans man would have a big advantage if forced to compete in women's sport. The rule in many sports previously was to allow trans women to compete in women's events after a certain time period on hormone therapy.

I'd urge you to take a read of this article on the swimmer Lia Thomas if you are interested. Its obviously not a scientific research paper but I think it helps to set out the idea that trans women competing with cis women isn't outrageous and that trans women, and Thomas in particular, don't gain the advantage you would expect at first. Its clearly an area which needs more research and has to be treated sensitively, but for me the current strategy of blanket banning isn't the answer either in terms of ensuring fairness by following what the science says [because frankly not enough science on this issue actually exists] or in terms of trying to promote inclusion.

What I mean in terms of inclusion is that the issue of trans women in sport doesn't mainly effect pros because frankly there are vanishingly few trans women in professional sport. What it does do, particularly in the case of blanket bans at all levels which is what we are tending to see and where most sporting bodies seem to want to head, is impact everyday people. Its the one trans girl in a school who now doesn't play sport because if she wants to play football she has to play for the boys team, or the hobby runner who now doesn't enter any local races because she would have to run them registered as a man.

Again its clearly not a straightforward issue, but right now we're increasingly seeing bodies treating it as straightforward by just implementing a blanket ban and hoping the problem goes away. Which for me isn't an adequate or fair response. We should really be researching this issue as much as possible with the aim of including trans women in women's events and trans men in men's events if at all practical.

Edited April 19, 2023 by MrWorldwideJr

[carpetmonster]

That, and you’re never going to make the gender critters happy anyway. Sharron Davies, who has long insisted she’s not bigoted, she just wants to protect women in sports…you’d think she’d be happy that Boston Marathon had a separate class (with no prize money either) for non-binary runners? Apparently not. 
 

 

[strichener]

4 hours ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

Have given FCD a week off to enjoy her holiday.

What rules did she break?

[Bully Wee Villa]

Trolling and generally making the forum unreadable.

[strichener]

2 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

Trolling and generally making the forum unreadable.

You are very selective in that regard.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Keep pushing

[BFTD]

40 minutes ago, strichener said:

You are very selective in that regard.

The rule's always been that if you spam the forum with hysterical walls of text that 99% of users will skip past, you're getting your arse handed to you.

f**k knows how I've survived.

[strichener]

1 hour ago, BTFD said:

The rule's always been that if you spam the forum with hysterical walls of text that 99% of users will skip past, you're getting your arse handed to you.

f**k knows how I've survived.

There is plenty of that in this thread from more than one poster.

[BFTD]

4 minutes ago, strichener said:

There is plenty of that in this thread from more than one poster.

Don't be shy; name names.

I recommend continuing to complain, and tag in the mods so they'll investigate.

[strichener]

2 minutes ago, BTFD said:

Don't be shy; name names.

I recommend continuing to complain, and tag in the mods so they'll investigate.

I'm not complaining, just stating facts.  As for the posters names, snitches get stitches but the mods are quite clearly capable of reading.

[BFTD]

2 minutes ago, strichener said:

I'm not complaining, just stating facts.  As for the posters names, snitches get stitches but the mods are quite clearly capable of reading.

"facts"

[DeeTillEhDeh]

9 hours ago, strichener said:

There is plenty of that in this thread from more than one poster.

Not 4 of 5 posts in a row of cut and paste.

Only one poster was doing that.

Edited April 20, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[Leith Green]

13 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

That, and you’re never going to make the gender critters happy anyway. Sharron Davies, who has long insisted she’s not bigoted, she just wants to protect women in sports…you’d think she’d be happy that Boston Marathon had a separate class (with no prize money either) for non-binary runners? Apparently not

If we are talking about different classes of competition, we may as well go the whole hog and recategorise like they do in para sport.

Different awards for Drug free/Drugged, Birth Gender/Other in swimming, cycling, boxing and athletics

2 tier golf competitions - hickory balls and gutties or the full tech 450 yard drive shite we see at the moment.

Obviously this is slightly tongue in cheek, but I suspect that different grades of competition is how this ultimately ends.

(I am serious about drugged/non drugged tho......)

 

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, Leith Green said:

If we are talking about different classes of competition, we may as well go the whole hog and recategorise like they do in para sport.

Different awards for Drug free/Drugged, Birth Gender/Other in swimming, cycling, boxing and athletics

2 tier golf competitions - hickory balls and gutties or the full tech 450 yard drive shite we see at the moment.

Obviously this is slightly tongue in cheek, but I suspect that different grades of competition is how this ultimately ends.

(I am serious about drugged/non drugged tho......)

 

Don't forget the cybernetically enhanced.

Just imagine how quickly Ben Johnson could've completed the hundred metres with a nitro tank, robot legs, and burning through enough ching to see through time.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Who actually doesn't want to see someone pump themselves full of steroids and run the 100m in 5.2 seconds before their heart bursts out of their chest at the finishing line ?

[carpetmonster]

5 hours ago, Marlo Stanfield said:

Who actually doesn't want to see someone pump themselves full of steroids and run the 100m in 5.2 seconds before their heart bursts out of their chest at the finishing line ?

Might put off some sponsors. Unless Daz want to do a comparison about how they get blood and tissue out of Lycra better than Persil. 

[Theroadlesstravelled]

‘Trans widow’ is being floated around.

Stories of marriages that have ended because the male has decided to change gender and the female no longer wants to be in that relationship.

It’s probably devastating to hear that from your spouse.

 

If my burd wanted to be a man then I probably would end the relationship tbh. I’m not into pegging.