The Gender Debate

[f_c_dundee]

3 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

The latter, and that’s the rationale - trans is a descriptive characteristic, like ‘tall’ or ‘Scottish’. It’s also why the two words are separate. 
 

Per the Cambridge dictionary which recently updated to include trans women  into their definitions (they did the same with men), absolutely you can - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/woman?q=Woman

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/man

see what I mean @Mr Waldo 

[carpetmonster]

9 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

You could say that.  But then many trans woman also claim to be female.  Words are not always allowed to have their previous distinct meanings now, for that would not be inclusive.

We do not have a word which we are allowed to use to group all the adult human females previously known as woman, while excluding the male-bodied people who now say they are women.   We are asked to use 'cis-women' thus grouping ourselves as only a subset of women. Cis is meaningless twaddle unless you believe yourself to have a gender identity. 

Clearly a trans woman is born male, or they wouldn't be trans.  As a woman, I can't be a trans woman, but I could be a trans man. 

 

Can you see why I have to use the 'slurs' that I use such as trans identifying man/woman or female/male-bodied?  

 

'Cis' just means 'not trans'. I'm a man. I'm a cis man. That just means I'm pretty sure the doctors got it right when they called it just after I'd exited my old dear. When are you asked to use it? The only setting I've ever found anything close in - and even then the word 'cis' wasn't mentioned - was on a 6 week course with a doula we did last year. It was over Zoom, so there were 7 couples on it, and she used 'pregnant people'; as far as I knew nobody on the call was trans. Nobody batted an eyelid. Maybe I'd use it if someone asked me if I were trans, but then it'd be a simple case of saying 'no, I'm cis' (or 'no, I'm not' even.) Cis is only twaddle if you believe trans is twaddle. 

You absolutely don't have to use slurs; that's very much a conscious decision on your part. 

9 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

 

The statement that transwomen are a type of woman, just like tall women or black women is also bullshit - tall women and black women are women - not men who identify as such.

Again, you've used 'transwomen' as a single word. Transwomen don't exist. Trans women do. Tallwomen and blackwomen don't exist, however tall women and black women do. 

9 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

 

We could go round all day, but the language used is so important, such that everyone is clear what they are saying.

Well yes, on clarity, you can go check the dictionary for 'trans-identified' but that isn't in it - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/spellcheck/english/?q=trans-identified

Edited May 24, 2023 by carpetmonster

[Zern]

2 hours ago, f_c_dundee said:

Which examples, out of interest?

I just find it all very incurious.  No engagement with what is being said on a genuine level.

I was talking about the phenomenon of feeling the cognitive dissonance when your strongly held belief is questioned, but you are just shutting it down.  I don't know if that explains it well.

I expect discussions to involve a bit of "no I believe this not that because reasons".  Not just  what feels like "you are bigoted and cannot possibly be saying anything true so I will just reply with random stuff". And then repeat.

It's not that the beliefs are questioned, dismissing others is fairly easy. It is when those beliefs are contradicted by reality.

In the case of the UFO cult. The leader was fond of making prophesies. They began vague enough so her followers provided enough hits to match the predictions. War, unrest that sort of stuff. As it progressed her predictions became more and more specific, more detailed culminating in an exact date, time and place where the UFO was going to arrive a pick every one of the believers. The UFO, obviously, did not arrive. The cult shut itself away for week before announcing that the UFO had arrived 'spiritually' and that they were now free to spread to good news.

Note that the core belief is preserved and the reality (no UFO) is amended.

 

In your case, you have a belief that medical care for trans people is harmful.

In reality the medical profession is based on the principle of "do no harm" and has both the expertise and knowledge to recommend what is and is not harmful. They recommend trans care.

So, to preserve the core belief you amend the reality. You propose an ulterior motive to 'do no harm', and replace it with something else.

money, ideology.. anything to ease tension between the two contradictory positions.

 

 

 

[Theroadlesstravelled]

1 hour ago, Mr Waldo said:

This is all getting confusing.

A woman can have a penis.  A trans woman is a woman.  Is this a trans woman is the same as a woman, or a type of woman? 

And what does 'woman' mean ? So, we cannot say a woman is a female?

 

Covid, BLM, Ukraine, trans people. The left v right bun fight will move into something else soon.

“Go to Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all this to blow over”.

[f_c_dundee]

1 minute ago, carpetmonster said:

You absolutely don't have to use slurs; that's very much a conscious decision on your part. 

They are not slurs to the average person, they are descriptions of reality.  I am not in someone's face shouting "you're not a man, you're a woman".

1 minute ago, carpetmonster said:

Again, you've used 'transwomen' as a single word. Transwomen don't exist. Trans women do. Tallwomen and blackwomen don't exist, however tall women and black women do. 

No.

Black women are mighty fucked off at TRAs saying every other day on Twitter, that it's wrong to say transwomen because that's like saying black women aren't women.  That is so backwords it's unbelievable.  Who the f**k is saying black women aren't women? Not women, that's for sure.  It's racist AF to try and use that to make it look like being a transwoman is the same as being an actual black woman. 

 

1 minute ago, carpetmonster said:

Well yes, on clarity, you can go check the dictionary for 'trans-identified' but that isn't in it - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/spellcheck/english/?q=trans-identified

would that be the dictionary updated fairly recently, when we decided words no longer meant what they had before?

 

Very good.

 

 

[BFTD]

It's really amazing how many posters we've had who start with "I don't have any strong feelings about trans people/wokeness, but..." only to post almost exclusively about trans people/wokeness.

[Savage Henry]

23 hours ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

Neither FC Dundee, nor her views, seem repugnant to me.

She actually does well to stay calm considering all the abuse, sneering and sarcasm directed toward her.

Her.  She.  Walter, or Mr Mitty if you please. 

[carpetmonster]

11 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

They are not slurs to the average person, they are descriptions of reality.  I am not in someone's face shouting "you're not a man, you're a woman".

I'm an average person; please don't ever presume you can speak for me. They are, certainly, however, slurs to trans people. I've found that out over Twitter. So they're dogwhistles on your part. You could plead ignorance on that but.... 

11 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

No.

Black women are mighty fucked off at TRAs saying every other day on Twitter, that it's wrong to say transwomen because that's like saying black women aren't women.  That is so backwords it's unbelievable.  Who the f**k is saying black women aren't women? Not women, that's for sure.  It's racist AF to try and use that to make it look like being a transwoman is the same as being an actual black woman. 

 

 

...this point shows you're very up on what language is used on Twitter. Nobody is saying black women aren't women (and interestingly, it was you who went there when I'd used 'tall' and 'Scottish'). By using transwoman, you're saying trans women aren't women. I haven't seen that meme, to be fair; have you got some accounts who are using it you could ref?

 

ETA - the only folks I've seen comparing black women to males recently are athletics governing bodies in the cases of Caster Semenya, Christine Mboma et al - https://apnews.com/article/transgender-track-semenya-f3499b00b932948f96838adb3b010f11

 

11 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

would that be the dictionary updated fairly recently, when we decided words no longer meant what they had before?

Dictionaries update every year; there's usually a couple of articles in the paper about 'peng' or 'goblin mode' when such things get added. Although there's no entry for 'trans-identified' in the Collins either - https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/spellcheck/english?q=trans-identified - can't check Oxford because they want $100 for an annual subscription before they let you in. 

11 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

 

Very good.

No, not at all. 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by carpetmonster

[Savage Henry]

4 minutes ago, BTFD said:

It's really amazing how many posters we've had who start with "I don't have any strong feelings about trans people/wokeness, but..." only to post almost exclusively about trans people/wokeness.

It’s almost as if it’s a handful of posters with multiple aliases and a very odd relationship with social interaction.  

[f_c_dundee]

55 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

It’s almost as if it’s a handful of posters with multiple aliases and a very odd relationship with social interaction.  

Hello, nice to meet you. 

You must have missed the bit where we established I was on P&B donkeys ago (registered 2007) and blundered in here when I came back. Got a bit more time for football again, due to the bairns being a bit bigger and taking an interest.

 

I can see what you mean about a few random 'registered on Saturday' accounts popping up and adding a green or red dot, but that's not me.

 

 

 

[TxRover]

Notice how @f_c_dundee has still avoided answering @carpetmonster’s point about making complaint about legal medicinal decisions made by legal adults in the UK…and has also not mentioned my point of the absence of surgeries on adults (18+) or emancipated minors (a very rare condition in itself). There is also the point of ignoring that a portion of the “top surgeries” she lovingly refers to will be related to the very real issue of BRCA1 and BRCA2 positivity in women.

1 hour ago, Zern said:

In your case, you have a belief that medical care for trans people is harmful.

In reality the medical profession is based on the principle of "do no harm" and has both the expertise and knowledge to recommend what is and is not harmful. They recommend trans care.

I got to talk today with a couple of people from a local high school group that is comprised of LGBTQIA+ students, and see them almost reduced to tears at the actions of the State of Texas to outlaw care they want and need. The most basic question they have is “why isn’t medicine above the law, and simply provided under the Hippocratic Oath?”. The answer is blue-noses who “know better” what “people want”, and wish to impose those views upon everyone else. The hypocrisy of their argument they are acting to “protect children” is made clear when at the same time they mandate a child victim of rape must carry her rapists child.

f_c_dundee is entitled to her views, as repugnant as they are, but it’s this argument that there is a vast conspiracy involved here that makes the whole thing unhinged. The almost exclusive focus of f_c_dundee on this issue is unhealthy, another common characteristic of the cult-like behavior of these conspiracy types.

[andyg83]

17 hours ago, FreedomFarter said:

 

 

 

 

 

Go and contribute something instead of this constant tone policing shite.

This is nuts

[andyg83]

16 minutes ago, andyg83 said:

This is nuts

Like really nuts

[carpetmonster]

I think he's stuck. Can someone show him a picture of Dylan Mulvaney or something, see if it resets him?

[Theroadlesstravelled]

Here's one to get his/her/it's/their angry motor going. Rarr.

 

[andyg83]

2 hours ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

Here's one to get his/her/it's/their angry motor going. Rarr.

 

Is that not Will Ferrell?

[andyg83]

This is nuts

[Theroadlesstravelled]

1 hour ago, andyg83 said:

Is that not Will Ferrell?

That's harsh on Will Ferrell tbh.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/24/1177963864/target-pride-month-lgbtq-products-threats

The Abprallen line is being taken off the shelves along with "tuck-friendly" swimsuits.

Woke capitalism is taking a bit of a battering recently but tuck-friendly swimsuits sound ok if the alternative is a pair of balls poking out the side of a womans' swimsuits. Maybe propriety isn't dead after all.

[carpetmonster]

27 minutes ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/24/1177963864/target-pride-month-lgbtq-products-threats

The Abprallen line is being taken off the shelves along with "tuck-friendly" swimsuits.

Woke capitalism is taking a bit of a battering recently but tuck-friendly swimsuits sound ok if the alternative is a pair of balls poking out the side of a womans' swimsuits. Maybe propriety isn't dead after all.

Right wing lunatics threatening store employees with violence is just the sort of propriety 21st century society should be aiming for.