Russian invasion of Ukraine

[williemillersmoustache]

4 minutes ago, Ray Patterson said:

Here's Zelensky playing Paddington Bear in the Ukrainian version of the film:
 

 

Pretty uncalled for, Vlad dragging Peru into this. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by williemillersmoustache

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Thanks for the latest info( Posted10 Mar 2009) on cluster munition use in Serbia Steve.
[emoji106]

SteveIQ55 on the ball again.

[Wee-Bey]

Just now, williemillersmoustache said:

Pretty uncalled for Vlad to drag Peru into this. 

Are Peru in NATO ? 

[Thane of Cawdor]

43 minutes ago, CaspianChris said:

Mon the Ukrainian farmers

 

I've read A Short History of Tractors in Ukrainian, don't recall any mention of this kind of scenario. Would still recommend.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

25 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

You clearly haven't read his previous posts on that other forum.

De-escalation has to be by both sides not one side.

Be very clear - the aggressor here isn't the Ukrainians - why the f**k should they de-escalate when the Russians are still attempting to invade?

They need to continue fighting until it's clear to Putin that if he continues there will be a protracted guerrilla war - that it is in his interests to have a ceasefire.

I have read a lot of his posts as it goes. I know he's very critical of NATO and the USA which isn't particularly helpful right now but also... not wrong? Obviously Russia has committed an atrocious act and should be condemned for doing so, but both generally, in failing to realise that it is no longer 1992, and specifically in hanging Ukraine out to dry there is a lot of failure there. Again, this might be an emotional time but this isn't a controversial or treasonous opinion, nor does it minimize the criminality of Russia or solidarity with Ukrainian people. A lot of serious people have been discussing it, including experts invited on the BBC. 

As for the rest, de escalation is very obviously bilateral, I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise and it's odd you keep implying so. And guerilla warfare usually ends with large numbers of guerillas, their friends and families being tortured to death so I'm not sure anyone advocating that has the best interests of Ukrainian people at heart.

There's a lot of romanticism involved in our discussion of this in the UK which personally I find odd. I have a lot of admiration for ordinary Ukrainian people deciding to stand up and resist this invasion, but I don't know if I feel comfortable demanding they do so to fit my idea of how this should end. A lot of naivety too, it was perplexing to see the BBC broadcast the faces of people quite likely to soon be under Russian occupation making Molotov cocktails the other day.

To reiterate, because I'm sure it will be ignored written above, I unequivocally condemn Russia's actions and, if for some reason I was allowed to pick, want Ukraine to win this. I also think the options other than the proposed peace talks going well are terrifying for Ukraine and the world, and don't feel it's my place to start talking about people 1000s of miles away fighting a guerilla war against a professional army, whether it would be admirable or not 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Genuine Hibs Fan

[Wee-Bey]

1 minute ago, Thane of Cawdor said:

I've read A Short History of Tractors 

^^^

Big team found

[Granny Danger]

1 minute ago, Thane of Cawdor said:

I've read A Short History of Tractors in Ukrainian, don't recall any mention of this kind of scenario. Would still recommend.

I’m holding out for A Short History of Tractors in Ukrainian II if you don’t mind.

[ICTChris]

The explosion in Cherkasy was an ammunition store and occurred on day one of the fighting.

Edited February 27, 2022 by ICTChris

[Wee-Bey]

1 minute ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

I have read a lot of his posts as it goes. I know he's very critical of NATO and the USA but he's also... not wrong? Obviously Russia has committed an atrocious act and should be condemned for doing so, but both generally, in failing to realise that it is no longer 1992, and specifically in hanging Ukraine out to dry there is a lot of failure there. Again, this might be an emotional time but this isn't a controversial or treasonous opinion, nor does it minimize the criminality of Russia or solidarity with Ukrainian people. A lot of serious people have been discussing it, including experts invited on the BBC. 

As for the rest, de escalation is very obviously bilateral, I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise and it's odd you keep implying so. And guerilla warfare usually ends with large numbers of guerillas, their friends and families being tortured to death so I'm not sure anyone advocating that has the best interests of Ukrainian people at heart.

There's a lot of romanticism involved in our discussion of this in the UK which personally I find odd. I have a lot of admiration for ordinary Ukrainian people deciding to stand up and resist this invasion, but I don't know if I feel comfortable demanding they do so to fit my idea of how this should end. A lot of naivety too, it was perplexing to see the BBC broadcast the faces of people quite likely to soon be under Russian occupation making Molotov cocktails the other day.

To reiterate, because I'm sure it will be ignored written above, I unequivocally condemn Russia's actions and, if for some reason I was allowed to pick, want Ukraine to win this. I also think the options other than the proposed peace talks going well are terrifying for Ukraine and the world, and don't feel it's my place to start talking about people 1000s of miles away fighting a guerilla war against a professional army, whether it would be admirable or not 

Wait, you want people to stop shooting each other ?

This sounds like Putin loving treason to me.

[bennett]

1 hour ago, TommyDickFingers said:

 

 

 

It takes months for pilots to train on new planes, it's not like saying here's some Typhoons or Rafales lads, go get em.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Just had my first experience of the news since this all started and got to hear some of the pronunciations

I didn't realise the entire country had been saying Roman Abramovich wrong for the past twenty years but we all must have been!

[yoda]

From Tooze (The Great And The Powerful):

Quote

It isn’t the financial sanctions alone that explain this dangerous escalation, but the combination of all three factors - Russian military frustration, increasingly emphatic Western commitment to backing Ukraine’s remarkable resistance and the sanctions on top. This forces Putin to look for a qualitatively different means to respond to an increasingly existential situation.

--

As far as the economy is concerned, the central question is what will happen in Russia what will happen in Moscow and in financial markets on Monday?

Will economic and financial chaos add a qualitatively new element to the escalatory logic. Clearly, at this point the West really is aiming to inflict heavy damage. But we should be prepared for the fallout, forgive the phrase, if things get chaotic next week. Are we ready for a further escalation of nuclear threats?

--

In 2014 Russia suffered a devaluation of massive proportions, but the sanctions were much less intense and the military battle was going in its favor. We have nothing that tells us how Putin’s nuclear-armed regime reacts under this kind of financial pressure, when it is also facing an existential military crisis.

 

An interesting read (link) but from before the latest round of sanctions aimed at the RCB were announced.

The stuff from clever people seems to point to bank runs and a currency collapse at some point soon.

[Fullerene]

6 minutes ago, Thane of Cawdor said:

I've read A Short History of Tractors in Ukrainian, don't recall any mention of this kind of scenario. Would still recommend.

I recall a story about Nikita Kruschchev visiting a tractor factory in the Soviet Union.  The approach was very much high productivity but nothing works (i.e. fulfill the quota at all costs and forget about quality).

He was asked to test drive a tractor.  It would not start.  Nor the next.  Eventually he found a tractor that would start but could only go in reverse.

He remarked "the good news is it moves".

 

[bennett]

1 hour ago, Sherrif John Bunnell said:

Years of taking steel chairs to the skull have taken their toll on Kane.

 

He looks completely different on Emmerdale farm.

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

9 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I’m holding out for A Short History of Tractors in Ukrainian II if you don’t mind.

[TommyDickFingers]

4 minutes ago, bennett said:

It takes months for pilots to train on new planes, it's not like saying here's some Typhoons or Rafales lads, go get em.

They will get surplus MIG 29'S  from the EU.

Take a stab at who already flys Mig 29's 

[Melanius Mullarkey]

12 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I’m holding out for A Short History of Tractors in Ukrainian II if you don’t mind.

Think Bonnie Tyler’s already done it, pal.

[williemillersmoustache]

4 minutes ago, bennett said:

 

 

It takes months for pilots to train on new planes, it's not like saying here's some Typhoons or Rafales lads, go get em.

 

Aye but the Poles and Bulgarians have Mig29s. I'm sure they've thought of this stuff. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I have read a lot of his posts as it goes. I know he's very critical of NATO and the USA which isn't particularly helpful right now but also... not wrong? Obviously Russia has committed an atrocious act and should be condemned for doing so, but both generally, in failing to realise that it is no longer 1992, and specifically in hanging Ukraine out to dry there is a lot of failure there. Again, this might be an emotional time but this isn't a controversial or treasonous opinion, nor does it minimize the criminality of Russia or solidarity with Ukrainian people. A lot of serious people have been discussing it, including experts invited on the BBC. 
As for the rest, de escalation is very obviously bilateral, I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise and it's odd you keep implying so. And guerilla warfare usually ends with large numbers of guerillas, their friends and families being tortured to death so I'm not sure anyone advocating that has the best interests of Ukrainian people at heart.
There's a lot of romanticism involved in our discussion of this in the UK which personally I find odd. I have a lot of admiration for ordinary Ukrainian people deciding to stand up and resist this invasion, but I don't know if I feel comfortable demanding they do so to fit my idea of how this should end. A lot of naivety too, it was perplexing to see the BBC broadcast the faces of people quite likely to soon be under Russian occupation making Molotov cocktails the other day.
To reiterate, because I'm sure it will be ignored written above, I unequivocally condemn Russia's actions and, if for some reason I was allowed to pick, want Ukraine to win this. I also think the options other than the proposed peace talks going well are terrifying for Ukraine and the world, and don't feel it's my place to start talking about people 1000s of miles away fighting a guerilla war against a professional army, whether it would be admirable or not 

I did say the threat of.

Ultimately it's up to the Ukrainians themselves if they want to lay down arms - I perfectly understand, given Putin's previous, why they would be reluctant to do so until a brokered ceasefire and deal is actually achieved.

I am also under no illusions that any deal will give concessions to Russia - that's Realpolitik. But to be in a position to negotiate the Ukrainians clearly need something to show Putin that they won't be pushovers in any deal.

I still think there will be some face-saving for Putin where both he and Zekensky can claim victory.

And let's be honest, a lot of the promises regards arms etc from the EU et al is more to do with showing Putin that the West wasn't going to roll over like he thought it would - tbqh the economic sanctions should focus his attention more in the short run.

[renton]

8 minutes ago, bennett said:

 

 

It takes months for pilots to train on new planes, it's not like saying here's some Typhoons or Rafales lads, go get em.

 

Yeah, but some of the Eastern NATO states will still have inventory of the same ex-Soviet aircraft that Ukraine has...