Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Cosmic Joe]

1 hour ago, highlandcowden said:

How so?

I find it a bit pathetic. He is in a difficult position no doubt, being paid to inflict damage, possibly even kill other human beings. It should be a sobering situation, not something to be glorified by demeaning your opposition. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Cosmic Joe said:

I find it a bit pathetic. He is in a difficult position no doubt, being paid to inflict damage, possibly even kill other human beings. It should be a sobering situation, not something to be glorified by demeaning your opposition. 

He was ground crew* so more detached from the danger and could afford to be more light-hearted. Flight crews will've been more focused, nine of them went on to die in that raid: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tungsten

Edit: *The man in the photo, Bob Cotcher, may've been flight crew actually. I found conflicting results just now when googling him. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by FreedomFarter

[Sweet Pete]

3 hours ago, FreedomFarter said:

He was ground crew* so more detached from the danger and could afford to be more light-hearted. Flight crews will've been more focused, nine of them went on to die in that raid: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tungsten

Edit: *The man in the photo, Bob Cotcher, may've been flight crew actually. I found conflicting results just now when googling him. 

A crucial difference; he's actively involved in a war, whether he's a frontline infantryman or a mechanic. Now, compare that with a random Internet user from Scotland (for example) paying actual money from their actual bank account to sponsor a hateful message on an explosive that will be launched (with a lovely souvenir photo) to kill other humans they've never met. That's wrong from every angle.

[ICTChris]

Footage of at least one Ukrainian POW being beheaded by Russian forces has come out tonight. Earlier in the week photos of the severed head of a Ukrainian soldier on a pole in Bakhmut came out, similar things have been seen in channels linked to Wagner before on the war. 

[Sweet Pete]

16 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Footage of at least one Ukrainian POW being beheaded by Russian forces has come out tonight. Earlier in the week photos of the severed head of a Ukrainian soldier on a pole in Bakhmut came out, similar things have been seen in channels linked to Wagner before on the war. 

And that's where dehumanising gets us.

It's all fun and games retweeting and donating money to "fun" activities like sending bombs, and the reality is real people having their heads cut off, or hands tied behind their backs and shot.

War isn’t a game, nor a spectator sport.

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

A crucial difference; he's actively involved in a war, whether he's a frontline infantryman or a mechanic. 

Sure, I didn't actually agree with the criticism of that Bob Cotcher photo. My motivation for chiming in was to try and give a little more information about it. Who the man was and the context he was in.

[Newbornbairn]

1 hour ago, ICTChris said:

Footage of at least one Ukrainian POW being beheaded by Russian forces has come out tonight. Earlier in the week photos of the severed head of a Ukrainian soldier on a pole in Bakhmut came out, similar things have been seen in channels linked to Wagner before on the war. 

Oh dear, how distasteful. 

[itzdrk]

On 10/04/2023 at 22:27, Newbornbairn said:

 

https://signmyrocket.com/ 

Not a fan of the message.  Should've been "Yeah you, you averagy looking cocktease"

[Booker-T]

On 10/04/2023 at 20:57, MazzyStar said:

Were tv stations, a passenger train, schools and even the Chinese embassy all “legitimate targets”? 

Anyone but NATO type post 

I’ll humour your questions with a response though:

1. Yes

2. depends on passengers 

3. No

4. Probably yes

 

But also, were each of those actual targets?

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Booker-T said:

Anyone but NATO type post 

I’ll humour your questions with a response though:

1. Yes

2. depends on passengers 

3. No

4. Probably yes

 

But also, were each of those actual targets?

Spoiler

Imagine a parallel universe where the following happened:

The sole global superpower nation wanted to break Northern Ireland away from the UK, in order to weaken the UK, because that was in the superpower's national interests. To do so, the superpower wanted to further foment civil conflict in Northern Ireland so provided training to the IRA. UK repression of ethnic Irish civilians in Northern Ireland was then described as ethnic cleansing and genocide by the superpower, and this was given as the justification for the superpower to bomb Northern Ireland, ostensibly on behalf of the IRA and ethnic Irish civilians there. Despite the UN ruling such action illegal, the superpower went ahead with the bombing campaign and this obliged some western European nations to join the bombing as they were locked into a military alliance with the superpower. 

Due to that bombing, the UK state now felt it was in a full war rather than just dealing with civil conflict. It began lashing out like a cornered animal. Given the bombing from this superpower was ostensibly being done on behalf of the IRA and ethnic Irish civilians, the UK now saw all ethnic Irish in Northern Ireland as the enemy and began carrying out atrocities against them. The IRA, both emboldened by the bombing and reacting to the new UK state atrocities, increased their own atrocities upon ethnic Brit civilians. The bombing from the superpower was mostly targeting UK state military which caused them to pull back out of Northern Ireland. WIth the UK military presence mostly gone, the IRA could step up their massacres of ethnic Brit civilians in Northern Ireland. Ethnic Brit paramilitaries retaliated with massacres of ethnic Irish civilians. Actual ethnic cleansing was now in full swing as refugees of both ethnicities poured into Ireland and over to mainland Britain from Northern Ireland. Some of those refugees, again of both ethnicities, were bombed by the superpower as they fled.

In addition to all the bombing of Northern Ireland, the superpower also bombed mainland Britain. A religious procession taking place on a bridge in Manchester was hit. A train in Derby. A bus in Birmingham. Electricity grids. Water and sewage systems. An oil refinery in Aberdeen. A random village in southern England. A random mining town outside Cardiff. The headquarters of the BBC. The Chinese embassy. University College Hospital in London.

Northern Ireland = Kosovo, IRA = KLA, Irish in Northern Ireland = Albanians in Kosovo, Brits in Northern Ireland = Serbs in Kosovo, Britain = The rest of Yugoslavia (both Serbia and Montenegro were bombed).

There's also the after-effects of war. NATO established a permanent presence in Kosovo after their 1999 bombing and their troops helped to create a child sex trafficking demand in the following years. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3686173.stm

Similar is still happening. Only last summer, a full 23 years after the war, British paras in Kosovo were having orgies with prostitutes https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/army-orgy-video-kosovo-bosnia-b2104022.html 

When you encourage a civil war in a country and bomb the shit out of it, you destroy that country's economy and women are the first victims of that, you force them to prostitution. 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by FreedomFarter

[The DA]

17 hours ago, Cosmic Joe said:

I find it a bit pathetic. He is in a difficult position no doubt, being paid to inflict damage, possibly even kill other human beings. It should be a sobering situation, not something to be glorified by demeaning your opposition. 

I thought it was because he missed the apostrophe.

[Guest]

The "small boats" thing in the news recently. The young men making those trips are nearly all Kosovar Albanian refugees from the Kosovo War or the sons of those refugees. The media reports them as Albanians coming from Albania, which is true, but what's also true is they all come  from the north eastern border region with Kosovo.

 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/02/route-albanian-migrants-taking-get-britain-laid-step-step/

They're the poorest men in Albania due to them or their families having been made refugees in 1999. Kukes received 450k Kosovar Albanian refugees that year due to the war. Now they're turning up in the English channel two decades later. Military imperialism does this, it creates such destruction that the ripple effects last long after. I know I'm on about the wrong war for the thread here but what Russia is doing to Ukraine is obviously military imperialism (on a far worse scale than NATO with Kosovo). We can all see it clearly this time as third party onlookers. That increased clarity can hopefully allow better recognition of past UK misadventure. Then we can more steadfastly oppose any future attempts to use our tax contributions for it.

[welshbairn]

On 07/04/2023 at 20:05, ICTChris said:

There has been a major leak of classified US documents on the war. Documents seem to have initially been posted to, of all places, a Minecraft discussion Discord server. Insane. The documents have been confirmed as genuine.

Russian sources have posted doctored versions with claims the Ukraine had lost far more KIA than the originals suggest - they changed 17.5k to 71.5k. The usual idiots are regurgitating this. The leak also seems to have information about the composition of Ukrainian forces, details of Western weapon deliveries alongside maps and detailed weather forecasts in relation to the counter offensive.

All of this on a Minecraft Discord server. What the actual f**k.

Hard to know what's going on here, beginning to think it might be US leaked disinformation.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/11/pentagon-leak-traced-to-video-game-chat-group-users-arguing-over-war-in-ukraine

[beefybake]

12 hours ago, Booker-T said:

Anyone but NATO type post 

I’ll humour your questions with a response though:

1. Yes

2. depends on passengers 

3. No

4. Probably yes

 

But also, were each of those actual targets?

^^^^^   Spokesperson for Collateral Damage Inc.

I do though, seem to recall from way back then, that at the time there was deep suspicion about the activities of

the Chinese Embassy.

[beefybake]

11 hours ago, FreedomFarter said:

Imagine a parallel universe where the following happened:

The sole global superpower nation wanted to break Northern Ireland away from the UK, in order to weaken the UK, because that was in the superpower's national interests. To do so, the superpower wanted to further foment civil conflict in Northern Ireland so provided training to the IRA. UK repression of ethnic Irish civilians in Northern Ireland was then described as ethnic cleansing and genocide by the superpower, and this was given as the justification for the superpower to bomb Northern Ireland, ostensibly on behalf of the IRA and ethnic Irish civilians there. Despite the UN ruling such action illegal, the superpower went ahead with the bombing campaign and this obliged some western European nations to join the bombing as they were locked into a military alliance with the superpower. 

Due to that bombing, the UK state now felt it was in a full war rather than just dealing with civil conflict. It began lashing out like a cornered animal. Given the bombing from this superpower was ostensibly being done on behalf of the IRA and ethnic Irish civilians, the UK now saw all ethnic Irish in Northern Ireland as the enemy and began carrying out atrocities against them. The IRA, both emboldened by the bombing and reacting to the new UK state atrocities, increased their own atrocities upon ethnic Brit civilians. The bombing from the superpower was mostly targeting UK state military which caused them to pull back out of Northern Ireland. WIth the UK military presence mostly gone, the IRA could step up their massacres of ethnic Brit civilians in Northern Ireland. Ethnic Brit paramilitaries retaliated with massacres of ethnic Irish civilians. Actual ethnic cleansing was now in full swing as refugees of both ethnicities poured into Ireland and over to mainland Britain from Northern Ireland. Some of those refugees, again of both ethnicities, were bombed by the superpower as they fled.

In addition to all the bombing of Northern Ireland, the superpower also bombed mainland Britain. A religious procession taking place on a bridge in Manchester was hit. A train in Derby. A bus in Birmingham. Electricity grids. Water and sewage systems. An oil refinery in Aberdeen. A random village in southern England. A random mining town outside Cardiff. The headquarters of the BBC. The Chinese embassy. University College Hospital in London.

Northern Ireland = Kosovo, IRA = KLA, Irish in Northern Ireland = Albanians in Kosovo, Brits in Northern Ireland = Serbs in Kosovo, Britain = The rest of Yugoslavia (both Serbia and Montenegro were bombed).

There's also the after-effects of war. NATO established a permanent presence in Kosovo after their 1999 bombing and their troops helped to create a child sex trafficking demand in the following years. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3686173.stm

Similar is still happening. Only last summer, a full 23 years after the war, British paras in Kosovo were having orgies with prostitutes https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/army-orgy-video-kosovo-bosnia-b2104022.html 

When you encourage a civil war in a country and bomb the shit out of it, you destroy that country's economy and women are the first victims of that, you force them to prostitution. 

 

The opinions of someone who has been nowhere, done nothing.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, beefybake said:

 

The opinions of someone who has been nowhere, done nothing.

Educate me then. I can't do much with that reply and I doubt anyone else reading can either.

If you mean the hypothetical parallel I constructed isn't appropriate because Kosovo pre-intervention didn't neatly match Northern Ireland during The Troubles, then of course. I wasn't suggesting a literal parallel but was using the hypothetical as a shortcut to better understanding for the unfamiliar. The person I was replying to had previously thought civilian deaths reduced post-intervention in Kosovo. That showed they were somewhat unfamiliar with the results of the war.

Edited April 12, 2023 by FreedomFarter

[beefybake]

35 minutes ago, FreedomFarter said:

Educate me then. I can't do much with that reply and I doubt anyone else reading can either.

If you mean the hypothetical parallel I constructed isn't appropriate because Kosovo pre-intervention didn't neatly match Northern Ireland during The Troubles, then of course. I wasn't suggesting a literal parallel but was using the hypothetical as a shortcut to better understanding for the unfamiliar. The person I was replying to had previously thought civilian deaths reduced post-intervention in Kosovo. That showed they were somewhat unfamiliar with the results of the war.

Yours is a twisted narrative.  And 'hypothetical' is meaningless when you've made it clear where the starting point for your opinions are, and they're not

remotely unbiased.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, beefybake said:

Yours is a twisted narrative.  And 'hypothetical' is meaningless when you've made it clear where the starting point for your opinions are, and they're not

remotely unbiased.

Spoiler

I still can't do anything with that. "Twisted narrative" just means "I disagree". Your narrative might be perfectly untwisted but you'll need to reveal it first. You need to say what you disagree with.

I'll try at where I'm guessing you might be annoyed:

The Yugoslav state oppression of Kosovar Albanians pre-February '99 (beginning of NATO bombing) was far worse than the UK state oppression of ethnic Irish in Northern Ireland pre-April '98 (Good Friday Agreement). The conflict between the separatist paramilitary and the state security (police and military) was also much "hotter" in Kosovo and was killing more people than in Northern Ireland.

Another big difference is the Kosovo conflict had multiple influencing factors and knock-on effects from previous local wars. For example, the Croatian war of secession had booted hundreds of thousands of Serbs out of Croatia. Milosevic, a Serb chauvinist, then kicked many Albanians out of their Yugoslav state jobs and gave those jobs to Serb refugees. An effect of that was newly destitute Albanian men joining the KLA and bombing Serb refugee centres in Kosovo. Then in turn Serb Yugoslav police in Kosovo would jail a bunch of random Albanian men  alleging KLA membership, and on it went. So multiple ethnic nationalisms were smashing around the wider region each causing knock-on effects. That contrasts with Northern Ireland where it was simply Ireland, Britain, then a dual ethnicity Northern Ireland between the two. Far more sealed off and simple.

The main point in why I used the hypothetical was not to suggest a parallel scale between the conflicts but to show the difference in external response each conflict was afforded.

Northern Ireland got a peace agreement.

Kosovo got bombed.

With Kosovo, UN monitors had been attempting to find peace and were acting as a very useful bulwark against escalating violence there. Those UN monitors then had to evacuate, though, as NATO ignored the UN judgement and went ahead with their bombing anyway.

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by FreedomFarter

[Guest]

I've gone back and put a couple of my replies there to hidden using the spoiler thing because I'm aware how long they were, how off topic they were and how annoying that will be. I'll continue that for any subsequent Kosovo war replies.

[Sweet Pete]

First time I've ever seen The Troubles described as "simple".