Energy Prices

[Left Back]

1 minute ago, jamamafegan said:

https://dontpay.uk

"pledge not to pay if the government goes ahead with another massive hike on October 1st"

They do realise that it isn't the government that are putting prices up?  It's the retail energy companies.  The government watchdog is actually limiting how much they can put them up.

Always wary of these things when the basic facts aren't correct.  Is this really an energy cost campaign group or some kind of political movement?

[jamamafegan]

"pledge not to pay if the government goes ahead with another massive hike on October 1st"
They do realise that it isn't the government that are putting prices up?  It's the retail energy companies.  The government watchdog is actually limiting how much they can put them up.
Always wary of these things when the basic facts aren't correct.  Is this really an energy cost campaign group or some kind of political movement?

It’s in the governments hands here to take serious action and impose the necessary measures onto the likes of BP and Shell to redistribute their massive profits and lower prices for the people. I think we are heading towards a situation where people will simply be unable to make ends meet. I really doubt the Tories will take the meaningful action required so I hope this campaign takes off. We’re being absolute rinsed.

[Left Back]

4 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

 

It’s in the governments hands here to take serious action and impose the necessary measures onto the likes of BP and Shell to redistribute their massive profits and lower prices for the people. I think we are heading towards a situation where people will simply be unable to make ends meet. I really doubt the Tories will take the meaningful action required so I hope this campaign takes off. We’re being absolute rinsed.

 

That's a completely different argument.

If that's who this campaign are targeting why aren't they saying that's what they're doing?

[101]

46 minutes ago, Left Back said:

If I remember it was £5bn in total but I don’t expect to see a penny actually raised.  The companies can offset it against green investment. No way are they handing over a penny in tax if they can invest that same money in a profit making venture.

Oh so it wasn't a % that's utterly useless then.

Day one for the new chancellor is 95% tax on profits of energy companies above the previous 3 year average.

And at the same time 50% tax on the exceptional profits made by companies in 2020 and 2021 compared to the previous 3 years average. 

[Left Back]

3 minutes ago, 101 said:

Oh so it wasn't a % that's utterly useless then.

Day one for the new chancellor is 95% tax on profits of energy companies above the previous 3 year average.

And at the same time 50% tax on the exceptional profits made by companies in 2020 and 2021 compared to the previous 3 years average. 

It was a percentage, that was expected to raise about £5bn.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cost-of-living-support/energy-profits-levy-factsheet-26-may-2022

Like I said no-one will be paying anything though (well a trivial amount).  They'll offset it against investment.  All these new support measures that were announced are coming from the magic money tree of borrowing, that future generations will have to pay back.

This levy is a con trick designed to show the government is doing something when in actual fact it's not hurting the companies at all.  They'd be re-investing a chunk of those profits anyway.

[Michael W]

1 hour ago, jamamafegan said:

https://dontpay.uk

Exactly why chancing b*****d energy companies have been trying to up direct debits. Probably more on the 'can't pay' grounds, but a cynical ploy to get their money in before it's a problem. 

Mines was upped 50% despite fixing before the price cap rise came in. Gave them a reading that put me into credit and it went back down again. Arseholes. 

[flyingscot]

1 hour ago, jamamafegan said:

It’s in the governments hands here to take serious action and impose the necessary measures onto the likes of BP and Shell to redistribute their massive profits and lower prices for the people. I think we are heading towards a situation where people will simply be unable to make ends meet. I really doubt the Tories will take the meaningful action required so I hope this campaign takes off. We’re being absolute rinsed.

 

I agree with that - people need help to manage the costs now, instead we have a government fucking about with 2 leaders having a beauty contest about how hard they can cut taxes, do a brexit again and be the hardest on foreigners. 

I'm not sure how deliberate non-payment is going to help meet these aims and indeed I think could make things worse for a number of people. 

The poll tax non-payment made sense as it put pressure directly on the government and people who actually set the amounts. In the end it brought down the government ultimately getting the system changed to Council Tax.

Not paying energy companies is not hitting the real issue. 26 companies have gone bust in the last year, wholesale rates are higher than the cap...

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, flyingscot said:

The poll tax non-payment made sense as it put pressure directly on the government and people who actually set the amounts. In the end it brought down the government ultimately getting the system changed to Council Tax.

Not paying energy companies is not hitting the real issue. 26 companies have gone bust in the last year, wholesale rates are higher than the cap...

Non-payment of bills will send suppliers and their shareholders squealing, which is a much more effective form of pressure on a Tory government than mere plebs freezing to death. And all of those 26 companies went bust due to their own foolish decisions at energy rates well below the price cap. 

The government might not be the direct cause of the problem but it can still pick up the pieces. If it isn't going to begin implementing a broad social tariff - as Parliament's own committee already recommends - then it can be forced to socialise the cost by having to nationalise failed energy suppliers after a payment boycott. 

[KD1711]

5 hours ago, Left Back said:

"pledge not to pay if the government goes ahead with another massive hike on October 1st"

They do realise that it isn't the government that are putting prices up?  It's the retail energy companies.  The government watchdog is actually limiting how much they can put them up.

Always wary of these things when the basic facts aren't correct.  Is this really an energy cost campaign group or some kind of political movement?

The government can step in and stop it happening, like it has in countries like France I remember reading there was a cap of 4% price rise there imposed by the government.

[Left Back]

10 minutes ago, KD1711 said:

The government can step in and stop it happening, like it has in countries like France I remember reading there was a cap of 4% price rise there imposed by the government.

You’ve also spectacularly missed the point.

It’s very easy to say the government should stop the price rises (that they aren’t putting in place as that website claims).  Great soundbite.  What’s your proposal and more importantly please detail the impacts of whatever you’re proposing.

[Left Back]

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

The problem with what the French have done is that it's not actually dealing with the situation on a sustainable basis and is shifting the problem elsewhere.

Leaving naked greed and profiteering aside, if they set a cap which forces companies to pay more for energy than they are charging, it's the tax payer who will subsidise the gap.

What public services do you want to see cut to support that policy?

 

France also aren’t currently impacted as much as the rest of Europe by wholesale gas prices.  It’s summer and demand for gas for heating is low.  Most of Europe is still reliant on gas to generate electricity.  France gets most of its electricity from its huge fleet of nuclear power stations.

The French government also has direct control over energy companies like EDF because it owns them.

In short they’re in a totally different situation to us.  Watch their stance change when they need gas for heat.

If we set a price cap that forces the retailers to sell at less than they buy for the retailer goes bust, like the 30 or so before them.  The retailers that are left are too big to go bust so will likely go into special administration like Bulb, so as you say the taxpayer will foot the bill eventually through higher energy prices.  Sounds like a great idea.

Why not fire in another windfall tax?  The last one has raised a spectacular amount of money so I’m not holding my breath.

What about telling the likes of Shell they have to sell the gas to our suppliers cheaper.  Lets have Johnny foreigner subsidising us in the way our EDF customers are subsidising the French at the moment.  Wonder how that would work in the real world.  The rest of Europe wouldn’t howl at all or hold our feet to the fire when we become net importers of energy again in the Autumn/winter timeframe.

It’s the easiest problem in the world to fix.  I’m sure the government really want this to continue so they get voted out at the next election and aren’t fixing it simply because they’re Tory c***s.

 

ETA.  I took a snapshot of how France generated it's electricity so far today (https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/power-generation-energy-source)

Gas is a measly 7.6%

Import    10.81%
Oil    0.27%
Coal    0.06%
Gas    7.61%
Hydro    6.68%
Nuclear    51.29%
Solar    19.94%
Wind    1.90%
Bio    1.43%

Compare that with what we're doing today (https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/)

Gas    29.57%
Nuclear    13.06%
Wind    39.97%
Solar    9.95%

We're far more dependant on Gas than the French are which is why we're impacted more.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Left Back

[Left Back]

6 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

The other thing worth remembering is that our suppliers have to bid for gas supplies in a global market.

If our suppliers don't bid enough, other countries will get that gas and we'll be left with nothing. From what I recall, that nearly happened in London a couple of weeks back and suppliers had to pay Belgium the highest price ever paid to keep the lights on over that weekend.

Fixing this is unbelievably hard.

The problem is decades in the making and Labour, Tory and Lib Dem governments during that time are firmly to blame. It's symptomatic of politicians who refuse to think beyond the next general election. And so, here we are, with no obvious way out.

One other thing to throw in here to the people that think the government can just fix this and aren’t because they’re only on the side of business and are deliberately trying to kill off us plebs.

I’m sure Businesses and business groups will have told the government they’re fine with the uncapped rises they’ve had to put up with.  That’s definitely happened imo.

[johnnydun]

It's hardly surprising to see BP making record profits. As the world moves away from fossil fuels, the large Oil companies will be trying to get as much profits as they can in the time they have left for exploration.

[invergowrie arab]

6 hours ago, oaksoft said:

 

 

So an immediate red flag is their request for money.

They reckon they can get 500,000 leaflets for £4k.

Well, for a start it costs about half that for the leaflets themselves.

But they will need to pay someone to deliver them and that costs about £50-£80 per 1000 to get the Post Office or a private firm involved.

The delivery alone will cost them £25k to £40k. So why they are asking for £4k is beyond me.

If they are relying on volunteers? Good luck to them. It takes about 10 hours to deliver 1000 leaflets so they'll need a small army to get 500,000 out in anything like a reasonable time. They have no chance of finding that many people willing to walk the thick end of 12 miles for free, taking shite from people who don't want leaflets through their door.

The only way to get mass awareness in a short space of time is go do it online on social media.

So that suggests they may not know what the hell they are doing. Not a great start for any campaign.

Agree that the costs of leaflets seems on the high side.

It's more akin to a political campaign and I think thats their model of establishing local campaign groups.

Six of us can deliver 1000 leaflets in about 2 hours. So whilst it is 12 man hours you don't need a huge team to cover a small village or estate.

You don't ask an individual to go and do 1000 off their own back 

The SNP can easily deliver a million leaflets in a weekend but it needs a base membership of 100k to make it work.

In my experience one in 20 members are willing activists.

If they cant get 50-100k members it's not that unrealistic.

[SuperSaints1877]

5 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Yeah but this is people all over. Their interest in politics stops at posting "f**k the Tories".  A quick look at our Politics forum should convince you that not one of them really understands the basics of anything.

That’s quite the sweeping statement. Even by your standards!  

 

[jamamafegan]

You’ve also spectacularly missed the point.
It’s very easy to say the government should stop the price rises (that they aren’t putting in place as that website claims).  Great soundbite.  What’s your proposal and more importantly please detail the impacts of whatever you’re proposing.

Nah nah nah, what is YOUR proposal is what I’d like to know seeing as you are poo pooing the Don’t Pay UK campaign. Fair enough the wording might be poor but who the f**k actually cares (apart from you) about that? The point of the campaign is simple - we need the government to step in and do something. Go and watch Martin Lewis discussing it on YouTube. He says that it’s got to a point where even he has run out of advice for people who are struggling to pay their bills. He is calling for the government to step in, a guy (economist maybe, can’t remember) on BBC Scotland earlier today was saying the same. It really is quite simple - we are being robbed by these oil giants who are profiting from our misery. What do you suggest we do? Hope that the Tories do something or hope that the oil giants lower costs?

[Busta Nut]

Why aren't we rioting?

[SuperSaints1877]

Just now, Busta Nut said:

Why aren't we rioting?

We can’t afford the petrol for the Molotov’s!

[Aufc]

 
Every single one of these companies is investing in green technology and blue sky research to ensure they still have a business in 20 years time.

Which is also why the windfall tax is pointless as they can get out of it by investing in green shit. Which they would be doing anyways

[BFTD]

19 minutes ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

That’s quite the sweeping statement. Even by your standards!  

He's just so much smarter than us all. Deal with it!

I enjoyed the bit about how he wants the electorate to have as little influence over change in government policy as possible. Who'd have thought that cod-libertarianism could veer so close to fascism?