Lowland League General Discussion

[Marten]

8 hours ago, ekok said:

Agree 100% , the equalisation of the Highland and Lowland leagues, particularly the number and quality of teams in respective feeder leagues is an anomaly that needs addressing. 

The Highland league know this and  keep their heads down and for example their " bottom team ie team 42 equivalent " gets the losers shameful second chance by way of a play off with prospective team coming up from below.

Agree should be more ventilation into Lowland League,  but at least that abomination is not part of the equation.

In terms of promotion / relegation, yes, also in the Highland League I'd like to see more. But they have more of an excuse than the LL. There is a grand total of 4 licensed teams in the 3 feeder leagues, 2 of them being in the incredibly weak North Caledonian League. So for now the current arrangement is understandable. Once there are more licensed tier 6 clubs in the Highland part of the pyramid, this should also change.

The difference in numbers and quality is obvious, but really the only way to address that would be to move the "divide" (I know there isn't really one in the rules anymore) further south. You can't really have the likes of Cowdenbeath in the HL or the likes of Crossgates Primrose, Dundonald Bluebell & Sauchie in a HL feeder. An argument could be made for Jeanfield, Kinnoul & Luncarty, but that's about it. With Scotland's geography, a lopsided pyramid is inevitable. Unless the LL gets split in east & west on tier 5, but it's pretty clear that won't be accepted either.

[FairWeatherFan]

13 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

I presume there would be a knock-on effect of increased relegation in the EoS and that the EoS accept that. Or would the EoS Premier expand?

 

I might be missing something here, but right now the EoSFL accept this:

0 Promotion + 0 Relegated LL = 3 up / 3 down
0 Promotion + 1 Relegated LL = 3 up / 4 down
0 Promotion + 2 Relegated LL = 3 up / 5 down
1 Promotion + 0 Relegated LL = 4 up / 3 down
1 Promotion + 1 Relegated LL = 3 up / 3 down
1 Promotion + 2 Relegated LL = 3 up / 4 down

3 positive/normal scenarios and 3 negative ones that would mean increased relegation.

If the LL had a scenario that 3 relegated sides becomes a possibility it would mean adding 2 negative scenarios.

0 Promotion + 3 Relegated LL = 3 up / 6 down
1 Promotion + 3 Relegated LL = 3 up / 5 down

I don't know if they would tweak things. Perhaps not initially as the additional scenarios are extreme and should be uncommon. If they went several seasons of excessive relegations maybe. On paper they'd be expecting their champion promoted and 1/2 relegated from the LL. Which is where they are now.

 

[Spyro]

39 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I don't know if they would tweak things. Perhaps not initially as the additional scenarios are extreme and should be uncommon. If they went several seasons of excessive relegations maybe. On paper they'd be expecting their champion promoted and 1/2 relegated from the LL. Which is where they are now.

If you look at how the leagues are set up, its only really the North Juniors that might run into problems in the distant future but nothing that can't be resolved. They might have to split their Division 1 again if too many teams come down from the Highland League and no-one fancies a license.

The other leagues should sort themselves out over time with teams coming down/up

[Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, Marten said:

In terms of promotion / relegation, yes, also in the Highland League I'd like to see more. But they have more of an excuse than the LL. There is a grand total of 4 licensed teams in the 3 feeder leagues, 2 of them being in the incredibly weak North Caledonian League. So for now the current arrangement is understandable. Once there are more licensed tier 6 clubs in the Highland part of the pyramid, this should also change.

The difference in numbers and quality is obvious, but really the only way to address that would be to move the "divide" (I know there isn't really one in the rules anymore) further south. You can't really have the likes of Cowdenbeath in the HL or the likes of Crossgates Primrose, Dundonald Bluebell & Sauchie in a HL feeder. An argument could be made for Jeanfield, Kinnoul & Luncarty, but that's about it. With Scotland's geography, a lopsided pyramid is inevitable. Unless the LL gets split in east & west on tier 5, but it's pretty clear that won't be accepted either.

Or a new Tier 5 league covering the "Midlands"?

[Dev]

14 hours ago, ekok said:

Hi just one simple comment.  If the teams that formed the original Lowland League had not taken a leap of faith,  most unlikely there would even be a Pyramid.  Yes it has its faults,  including promotion / relegation all the way through. 

To read posters talking about " get rid of the rubbish,  etc " is as offensive as it is uninformed.  Some excellent posts on this thread as well, maybe if more people took a more positive take on where we are, rather than cloud cloud cuckoo land we might actually get an improved set up ,

Yes it has its faults,  including promotion / relegation all the way through. 

........ so why doesn't EKFC vote accordingly and do something to bring about a modern pyramid arrangement with the next tier down in the pyramid?

Serious reply please.

[Dev]

13 hours ago, Grandmas Enigma said:

Numerically that would be ideal. Although what if 41 and 42 were both from the same league?! There are always so many complications. The whole system needs re- worked!

What's complicated about two or even more clubs being relegated to the same division given that clubs relegated in turn from consecutive lower divisions would already know that is a possibility and would be fighting to avoid potential relegation spots? It's what the pyramid is about i.e. merit linked to minimum facilities at each level. 

Come on this isn't that hard to understand is it?

[LongTimeLurker]

3 hours ago, Marten said:

..You can't really have the likes of Cowdenbeath in the HL...

There's only a 4 minute drive time difference to Wick compared to what Lochee United would be expected to do according to Google Maps. You could try to do it in other words but there would no doubt be plenty of turbulence experienced by whoever tried to get that through the meetings where it needed to be agreed just as there was when trying to convince Dundee area clubs that they should be in an HL rather than LL feeder. What we have now is what we are likely stuck with for the foreseeable future bar a few minor tweeks on pro/rel issues and the occasional flit between leagues by clubs close to the existing boundaries.

[Marten]

3 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

Or a new Tier 5 league covering the "Midlands"?

There aren't enough licensed teams in the Midlands. The only 3-way split that could work would be the old junior structure of north/east/west. That could give a LL East with: Brechin City, University of Stirling, Cowdenbeath, Bo'ness United, Linlithgow Rose, East Stirlingshire, Civil Service Strollers, Tranent, Gala Fairydean Rovers, Berwick Rangers, Lochee United, Broxburn Athletic, Musselburgh Athletic, Hutchinson Vale, Dunbar United and Jeanfield Swifts.

There would then have to be further regionalisation further down though to not get tier 8/9 games like Tweedmouth Rangers v Brechin Vics. But tier 5 splitting in 3 isn't going to happen anyway.

 

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

There's only a 4 minute drive time difference to Wick compared to what Lochee United would be expected to do according to Google Maps. You could try to do it in other words but there would no doubt be plenty of turbulence experienced by whoever tried to get that through the meetings where it needed to be agreed just as there was when trying to convince Dundee area clubs that they should be in an HL rather than LL feeder. What we have now is what we are likely stuck with for the foreseeable future bar a few minor tweeks on pro/rel issues and the occasional flit between leagues by clubs close to the existing boundaries.

Fair point, but then it is about 45 minutes more for Cowdenbeath to the likes of Banks O'Dee, Inverurie, Formartine, Fraserburgh etc. than it is for Lochee United, so overall it's quite a bit more travel for them. But as you say, a change of the regions isn't going to happen at tier 5.

[newcastle broon]

18 hours ago, cowdenbeath said:

Think most clubs would want Bankies up as they would bring a decent away support same with the Lok.

Out of interest what was your crowd on Saturday against one of the bigger supported teams in the league? 

Around 250 I heard.

I'd be more worried about the folk that have deserted Central Park.

Edited January 15 by newcastle broon

[aidan-bufc]

55 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Out of interest what was your crowd on Saturday against one of the bigger supported teams in the league? 

Around 250 I heard.

I'd be more worried about the folk that have deserted Central Park.

351 was announced at half time i believe.

[Grandmas Enigma]

5 hours ago, Dev said:

What's complicated about two or even more clubs being relegated to the same division given that clubs relegated in turn from consecutive lower divisions would already know that is a possibility and would be fighting to avoid potential relegation spots? It's what the pyramid is about i.e. merit linked to minimum facilities at each level. 

Come on this isn't that hard to understand is it?

I understand, do you? If (in the hugely unlikely scenario) team 41 and 42 were both going down into the same league that would create a problem. The lowland league has a 16 team limit so in a hypothetical scenario if two league 2 teams were to be relegated into it that would mean two relegated out of the lowland and no promotion into it (as the rules currently stand). Which in turn would create an understandable problem For the EOS teams contesting promotion. Which is why I said the system needs re-worked.

 

[Grandmas Enigma]

2 hours ago, Marten said:

There aren't enough licensed teams in the Midlands. The only 3-way split that could work would be the old junior structure of north/east/west. That could give a LL East with: Brechin City, University of Stirling, Cowdenbeath, Bo'ness United, Linlithgow Rose, East Stirlingshire, Civil Service Strollers, Tranent, Gala Fairydean Rovers, Berwick Rangers, Lochee United, Broxburn Athletic, Musselburgh Athletic, Hutchinson Vale, Dunbar United and Jeanfield Swifts.

There would then have to be further regionalisation further down though to not get tier 8/9 games like Tweedmouth Rangers v Brechin Vics. But tier 5 splitting in 3 isn't going to happen anyway.

 

Fair point, but then it is about 45 minutes more for Cowdenbeath to the likes of Banks O'Dee, Inverurie, Formartine, Fraserburgh etc. than it is for Lochee United, so overall it's quite a bit more travel for them. But as you say, a change of the regions isn't going to happen at tier 5.

Could you regionalise it into North current (Highland), Midland (Fife-Dundee ish), East and West Tobalance out the teams and their feeders leagues? I suppose its a a waste of time because despite the clear need for restructure, as you have said a change in the regions is unlikely.

[Dev]

44 minutes ago, Grandmas Enigma said:

I understand, do you? If (in the hugely unlikely scenario) team 41 and 42 were both going down into the same league that would create a problem. The lowland league has a 16 team limit so in a hypothetical scenario if two league 2 teams were to be relegated into it that would mean two relegated out of the lowland and no promotion into it (as the rules currently stand). Which in turn would create an understandable problem For the EOS teams contesting promotion. Which is why I said the system needs re-worked.

 

Really! It's not that difficult - unless anyone wants it to be.

Of course, if the Lowland League was just capable of dealing with an 18 or 19 team league season, then it could expand temporarily by one or two or even three clubs. That would help wouldn't it? However, 16 is the max number even though the antics of the Board in letting B teams in have shown that 18 or 19 can be coped with ..... and if they can cope with the odd number of 19 clubs then maybe 20 could be the max number.

[cowdenbeath]

2 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

Out of interest what was your crowd on Saturday against one of the bigger supported teams in the league? 

Around 250 I heard.

I'd be more worried about the folk that have deserted Central Park.

351 our home crowd has held up reasonably well.

[Burnieman]

21 hours ago, Left Back said:

One theory goes that the SFA are trying to force the LL to provide somewhere for the B teams to play at the moment so will stymie any attempts to improve it.

 

Perhaps then the LL need to be a little more clever and offer 2-4 permament places to B teams with the proviso that they can permanently expand to 18-20 clubs, and that the B teams can be relegated to tier 6. 

Also offer up a minimum of two relegation spots to Tier 6 plus a play-off, and push for an auto relegation spot from L2 as part of the deal.  Perhaps the SPFL would go for this if it removed the threat of B teams being promoted.

If there's horse trading to be done, start trading.

Edited January 15 by Burnieman

[cowdenbeath]

1 minute ago, Dev said:

Really! It's not that difficult - unless anyone wants it to be.

Of course, if the Lowland League was just capable of dealing with an 18 or 19 team league season, then it could expand temporarily by one or two or even three clubs. That would help wouldn't it? However, 16 is the max number even though the antics of the Board in letting B teams in have shown that 18 or 19 can be coped with ..... and if they can cope with the odd number of 19 clubs then maybe 20 could be the max number.

The SFA will only allow 16 maximum.

[To B or not B]

25 minutes ago, cowdenbeath said:

The SFA will only allow 16 maximum.

I bet you that would change if the bigot brothers were to be offered a permanent place. 

[Brazilianlex]

38 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

 

Perhaps then the LL need to be a little more clever and offer 2-4 permament places to B teams with the proviso that they can permanently expand to 18-20 clubs, and that the B teams can be relegated to tier 6. 

Also offer up a minimum of two relegation spots to Tier 6 plus a play-off, and push for an auto relegation spot from L2 as part of the deal.  Perhaps the SPFL would go for this if it removed the threat of B teams being promoted.

If there's horse trading to be done, start trading.

Your right !

It’s unfortunately the case that the Lowland League needs to do the SFAs job but that’s the facts.

Too many Clubs position is to simply get the B Teams to feck with no alternative plan and don’t allow change to bottom of pyramid until they let us in the SPFL.
Some are trying to find solutions but get voted down at every turn. 
The LL Cup was one option where the competition could have been restructured to let B teams in and get them out the league and some decent prize money to boot but it was also voted down by LL Clubs.

[Cowdenleith]

3 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

Out of interest what was your crowd on Saturday against one of the bigger supported teams in the league? 

Around 250 I heard.

I'd be more worried about the folk that have deserted Central Park.

Trolled by a Whitehill Welfare fan about crowd levels.

Get yourself over to the Cowden thread and we’ll give you what for.

To be fair, there was a very good crowd from Bo’ness on Saturday. However, as @cowdenbeathsaid our crowds have held up ok, I doubt if the crowds are much smaller than the last couple of years in division 2 (apart from the odd game with big away support like Kelty).  I must do some analysis some time. 

[cowdenbeath]

1 hour ago, Cowdenleith said:

Trolled by a Whitehill Welfare fan about crowd levels.

Get yourself over to the Cowden thread and we’ll give you what for.

To be fair, there was a very good crowd from Bo’ness on Saturday. However, as @cowdenbeathsaid our crowds have held up ok, I doubt if the crowds are much smaller than the last couple of years in division 2 (apart from the odd game with big away support like Kelty).  I must do some analysis some time. 

With a half decent side this season a lot of old faces have been enticed back.