The Queen of the South thread

[Skyline Drifter]

While we can debate about why the crowds have gone down ( eg Brannigan , McPherson , admission price , board direction or whatever else ), I think the answer is a bit simpler. The post Cup final support was built on sand and the honeymoon now well over. I laughed at all these locals calling themselves Queens fans knowing fine well they would vanish at the first sign of struggle . Yes, I would say that the crowds after Hampden were artificially high and we are having a re - adjustment now . The lack of a bigger , more reliable crowd is always going to hold us back and its a great shame .

Whilst that's all almost certainly true, it is still the case that the crowds even in 06/07 were averaging about 1,700 - 1,800 home support and that even BEFORE Hampden. Home support this season is about 400 or so down on that albeit it's early days. That drop isn't down to any Hampden bounce disappearing.

Rather it's probably a combination of all the things you mention previously and possibly some others. It's more expensive to get into Palmerston now than it was in 2007 (at least it is for adults and pensioners) and that combined with the state of the economy, even as relatively sheltered as Dumfries is from it, certainly won't have helped, though it is likely that a price cut would be counter-productive to overall income anyway.

There's no doubt the complete breakdown of relations between the Board and Brannigan last season, and to a slightly lesser extent as a result, between the Board and the fans, has soured things for some people, though I'd have thought that probably doesn't greatly affect the floating fan except to the extent that if they hear their mates who are regulars grumbling they are less likely to be encouraged to go I suppose.

I'm not sure if there will have been any significant change in the demographic of local support in the last five years or so? People grow up, move away, get Saturday jobs, etc but they will generally be replaced by a new generation. If anything given the efforts in promoting the club in schools over the last few years that should be helping, not hurting crowds. It's possible though that we're losing now kids who became regulars on the back of the 02 promotion and cup success and good league campaigns thereafter, or even latter day converts who became fans post Hampden, a few years down the line leaving school and moving away?

I guess the first division becomes less "novel" and correspondingly entertaining each year. We've been here for a decade now without seriously threatening to go up or down very often. It probably doesn't help, though I'd rather stay here than be down a level.

Basically though, away from local concerns, the fact is football clubs around the country are generally showing attendance drops and that must be linked to the economy (and price) more than anything else. I'm not sure that you can do much locally to address that except do as best you can to make the game something worth coming to and try to ride it out. Things aren't great for a number of clubs at this level at the moment. We're far from the only one.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Skyline Drifter

[Skyline Drifter]

we went top of the league in Oct 2008 followed by the rot setting in as Chisholm made it known he'd rather be at Dundee, a short time after signing a two year extension to his contract. Things like that confirm the views of some fans that he wanted to go to Dundee because Queens wouldn't or couldn't be promoted.

Kilmarnock I presume you mean?

He didn't go to Dundee until 2010 when his contract was almost up.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Skyline Drifter

[JRS LEFT PEG]

Of course, I should have said main reason for the crowd demise but not the only

[Skyline Drifter]

I meant first time round just after the UEFA game. Maybe it wasn't a two year extension, but it gave him a contract until 2010.

I knew his contract was about to run out when he actually did leave in 2010.

Yeah, I've edited it since when I realised what you meant. It was the use of "Dundee" that threw me, I think you meant Kilmarnock?

It was a one year "extension" per se in that he was already contracted to May 09 and that took him to May 10.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Skyline Drifter

[JRS LEFT PEG]

Great post Ewan , very good reading . Yes, another factor not talked about that much is Saturday/weekend working . Everyone 'knocking' off early on a Friday afternoon for the weekend is long gone and has been for a while. I myself have worked every second weekend ( outwith holidays) for the last sixteen years. Bloody tiring on a twelve hour Saturday nightshift when you have sandwiched the Queens game in between the Friday one.---------Anyway ,the figures don't lie. An average home attendance of 2750 post Cup final season . Yes, there are a few reasons why folk don't come but the main reason is that these stayaways have figured out that following us aint all Hampden glamour.

[Skyline Drifter]

Was it not Dundee that Rae didn't allow Chisholm to speak to? I seem to remember he said he would have allowed it if it had been an SPL club. Although Chisholm never actually said he wanted to go, it was pretty clear he did and it coincided with a complete slump by the team from then which lasted until near the end of 08/09.

Actually I think you are right. I had forgotten all about us refusing to let him talk to Dundee before they appointed Jocky Scott. Kilmarnock was later by a few months I think and he did talk to them. I stand corrected.

[Skyline Drifter]

Great post Ewan , very good reading . Yes, another factor not talked about that much is Saturday/weekend working . Everyone 'knocking' off early on a Friday afternoon for the weekend is long gone and has been for a while. I myself have worked every second weekend ( outwith holidays) for the last sixteen years.

I don't think thats a reason why less people go now than four or five years ago though. I doubt more people work Saturdays now than did then.

[Homer Thompson]

I think it was Flash who's brought up the policing a few times. Whoever it was will be interested in this, RE this Saturdays Livy game

We have agreed with the local constabulary, that this will be a non-policing game, handled solely by G4S.This is a cost saving exercise, therefore your assistance and patience would be greatly appreciated.

Taken from the new "Board Blog"

Edited October 26, 2011 by Mr X

[Monkey Tennis]

I guess the first division becomes less "novel" and correspondingly entertaining each year. We've been here for a decade now without seriously threatening to go up or down very often. It probably doesn't help, though I'd rather stay here than be down a level.

Of all the factors you suggest, (and each is relevant) for me, the above is the clincher.

In getting out of the Second a decade ago, the club had a bit of a re-birth. We got some big gates on the title run-in and our crowds once up, definitely benefited from the novelty factor.

Since then, we've certainly had downturns as preludes to our Great Escapes, but over the piece I'd say there's been a sort of upward momentum until relatively recently. It's a period that saw us field the best Queens player that even old gits like us have ever seen and of course it culminated in the events of '08.

The arrival of some sort of financial realism has however coincided with a time where some of the floaters have naturally been burnt off. Division One again only really represents any sort of success to diehards and there's fewer of them than we'd perhaps supposed.

For those of us who regularly joined 500 or so others at Palmerston in the early nineties though, it's maybe worth remembering that our hard core has been a lot smaller before.

[TeeMan]

Of all the factors you suggest, (and each is relevant) for me, the above is the clincher.

In getting out of the Second a decade ago, the club had a bit of a re-birth. We got some big gates on the title run-in and our crowds once up, definitely benefited from the novelty factor.

Since then, we've certainly had downturns as preludes to our Great Escapes, but over the piece I'd say there's been a sort of upward momentum until relatively recently. It's a period that saw us field the best Queens player that even old gits like us have ever seen and of course it culminated in the events of '08.

The arrival of some sort of financial realism has however coincided with a time where some of the floaters have naturally been burnt off. Division One again only really represents any sort of success to diehards and there's fewer of them than we'd perhaps supposed.

For those of us who regularly joined 500 or so others at Palmerston in the early nineties though, it's maybe worth remembering that our hard core has been a lot smaller before.

I agree with all that had been said, especially the bit bolded above. It is difficult to see what more the club can do to get people through the gate when the monotony of mid-table first division football is the product. The only hope is to work at off the field activities and promotions with local youngsters.

[BigRubberFist]

It is difficult to see what more the club can do to get people through the gate when the monotony of mid-table first division football is the product.

There's not much the club can do about this, I'll admit, but a league setup whereby teams play each other four times in nine months has to be a turn-off. It might have seemed like a good idea in the 1970s, but the game and society as a whole has moved on since then. Punters across Scotland are voting with their feet and attendances at Palmerston are no exception.

Part of me (a small part, I must say) thinks relegation this season might not be so bad as at least things might freshen up for us next season...

[Northfield 53]

Is the A.G.M. in November ?. This will be from last season May 2010 to May 2011.There will be another huge loss again we must be looking at £ 250,000 for a club the size of Queens that is very poor.

The key to Queens is the old Tesco we MUST try and get something done this year.

I wonder this year with the wages not being as high if we are still losing money or we are even making a profit.

[RUSTY1111]

Is the A.G.M. in November ?. This will be from last season May 2010 to May 2011.There will be another huge loss again we must be looking at £ 250,000 for a club the size of Queens that is very poor.

The key to Queens is the old Tesco we MUST try and get something done this year.

I wonder this year with the wages not being as high if we are still losing money or we are even making a profit.

This link below relates to all Queen of the South's stats for this season:

http://en.wikipedia....uth_F.C._season

Edited October 27, 2011 by RUSTY1111

[JRS LEFT PEG]

The lack of a derby game in recent seasons has hurt us badly . The, two home gates against Gretna in 06-07 were attended by 5400 and 3800. Astonishing when you think the situation now . An ex regular told me recently that he believed that Queens would be better of a division below with potential games against Stranraer, Ayr Utd and Annan. I knew where he was coming from but wasn't inclined to agree with him. ---------We, along with County and maybe Morton are not seen as attractive to visiting fans either for obvious geographical reasons . Hamilton , Thistle , Livvy , Raith and Falkirk will all benefit from being relatively near each other . I can also imagine Dundee taking sizeable supports to Kirkcaldy and Falkirk and vice versa. Come on up Annan , we need you.

[Monkey Tennis]

The lack of a derby game in recent seasons has hurt us badly . The, two home gates against Gretna in 06-07 were attended by 5400 and 3800. Astonishing when you think the situation now . An ex regular told me recently that he believed that Queens would be better of a division below with potential games against Stranraer, Ayr Utd and Annan. I knew where he was coming from but wasn't inclined to agree with him. ---------We, along with County and maybe Morton are not seen as attractive to visiting fans either for obvious geographical reasons . Hamilton , Thistle , Livvy , Raith and Falkirk will all benefit from being relatively near each other . I can also imagine Dundee taking sizeable supports to Kirkcaldy and Falkirk and vice versa. Come on up Annan , we need you.

Annan would be nice. The novelty value would help ensure decent gates, at least at first. With Stranraer though, the fact that they're currently really poorly supported and not very near us at all anyway would mean that any boost to gates would be fairly minimal.

Basically, I don't suppose we'll ever have another derby rival like Gretna again. The circumstances there were absolutely unique. Their superficial apparent success served to both give them a fleetingly large local support and also galvanize ours into turning out.

I remember the games fondly, despite the catastrophic results in the three I actually manged to attend. Still sore about missing the other one.

Edited October 27, 2011 by Monkey Tennis

[MB]

Annan would be nice. The novelty value would help ensure decent gates, at least at first. With Stranraer though, the fact that they're currently really poorly supported and not very near us at all anyway would mean that any boost to gates would be fairly minimal.

Basically, I don't suppose we'll ever have another derby rival like Gretna again. The circumstances there were absolutely unique. Their superficial apparent success served to both give them a fleetingly large local support and also galvanize ours into turning out.

I remeber the games fondly, despite the catastrophic results in the three I actually manged to attend. Still sore about missing the other one.

I concur. I don't think we'd get very large gates if we happened to have a home fixture against Stranraer. We'd probably take a good few hundred to an away fixture at Stair Park so would be a welcome boost for their coffers. The novelty factor of playing Annan would boost the crowds at both grounds for a while, I'm sure.

As for Gretna, I attended all the games that season. The worst was undoubtedly the 5-0 defeat at Raydale, but the 3-0 victory a few months later was glorious. That was a great day out.

Edited October 27, 2011 by MB

[Skyline Drifter]

The lack of a derby game in recent seasons has hurt us badly . The, two home gates against Gretna in 06-07 were attended by 5400 and 3800. Astonishing when you think the situation now . An ex regular told me recently that he believed that Queens would be better of a division below with potential games against Stranraer, Ayr Utd and Annan. I knew where he was coming from but wasn't inclined to agree with him. ---------We, along with County and maybe Morton are not seen as attractive to visiting fans either for obvious geographical reasons . Hamilton , Thistle , Livvy , Raith and Falkirk will all benefit from being relatively near each other . I can also imagine Dundee taking sizeable supports to Kirkcaldy and Falkirk and vice versa. Come on up Annan , we need you.

It was just the one season though. I take the point, we seriously lack the big boost to numbers that a close rival would bring in the way Dunfermline and Raith do, Inverness and County, Dundee & St Johnstone, even Thistle and Airdrie. We had it in that one season, but as Monkey Tennis says, even that was a truly unique situation where the way Gretna and Mileson went about what they did stirred the area in a way few were not affected by. You either loved or hated them for it but either way it got interest. Then it was gone though, a new Gretna today wouldn't boost crowds massively and as MB and Monkey Tennis point out, it's a long time since a game with Stranraer actually led to much of a crowd. The recent cup meeting was no more than an average league crowd size. As MB says, the likelihood is that being in the same division as Stranraer is much more important to them than us.

I think when we finally meet Annan competitively it will bring a decent crowd but there isn't the enmity there to make it a really big game. I think it's unlikely Annan will make the first division any time soon so the only way we're likely to meet them at league level is if we go down and then crowds will be lower anyway. I certainly don't agree with the suggestion we'd be better off crowd-wise a level below. Unless we were winning every week of course. Nothing brings a crowd in like consistent winning! But that would be true however far away the opposing sides were.

As for the geographic thing, well it is what it is, but generally I think that the west coast clubs do tend to treat Dumfries as a right good day out and travel in bigger numbers than they would the same distance the other way. The likes of Thistle, Morton, maybe even Falkirk bring good supports here for that reason. The Dundee's and Fife clubs though seem to think Dumfries is another time zone when they talk about travelling.

[Homer Thompson]

Is the A.G.M. in November ?. This will be from last season May 2010 to May 2011.There will be another huge loss again we must be looking at £ 250,000 for a club the size of Queens that is very poor.

The key to Queens is the old Tesco we MUST try and get something done this year.

I wonder this year with the wages not being as high if we are still losing money or we are even making a profit.

From the Board Blog

AGM

We are on track to finish the amounts this week and get the results publish and dispatched to shareholders. It is our intention to then hold the AGM by the end of November in a new format which I hope you will enjoy.

[weeredbook]

The A.G.M. will reveal that the club is in a dire state, and that the cuts that have been made, are the tip of the iceberg.

The new chairman will have a helluva task on his hands.

[RossC93]

How has Alan Reid looked so far? Decent wee player and top bloke. Can play almost anywhere too!