The Queen of the South thread

[die hard doonhamer]

What's all you Doonhamers opinion on Stephen Rigg, does he cut the Chase?
I know he is presently injured.

Not good enough for this level.

[outsider]

4 hours ago, weeredbook said:

Have to agree with a lot of palmy cammys post.The standard of the under 20s is poor and the appointment of someone to get a grip on the youth system should be a priority. The sooner reserve team football is brought back the better.The whole youth system at the club needs a shake up .

Agree with that, these young boys would gain more from reserve team football than the will playing 20's games.

[QoS_1919]

3 hours ago, MONKMAN said:

 

When's he ever been a goal scorer?

 

When he was a striker at Gretna 2008. 

[Sloop John B]

32 minutes ago, outsider said:

Agree with that, these young boys would gain more from reserve team football than the will playing 20's games.

 

What exactly is the difference between reserve team football and Under 20s?  I'm pretty sure overage players are allowed to play anyway. Other teams are able to produce players in the current system at similar levels of budget. 

I'm not especially knowledgeable about youth development but there are a lot of concerning things to me at Queens and probably in general in Scotland. Firstly why are so many of the youth players are simply not physically ready to cope with senior football? I'm not expecting them to be shredded like Derek Lyle, but some upper body strength and conditioning would not go amiss. The point of having a youth team is to prepare them to be able to push for contention in the senior team so if they aren't physically ready then that is a failing on either the club for not being able to offer a gym session during training,  emphasising that as a professional footballer, it's your job to be as athletic as you possibly can be, or the players for not taking the responsibility for themselves if are actually provided with conditioning and nutrition plans. Though it's not exactly a secret that you have to be a pretty good athlete as well as a good technical player to go far these days.

There can be the suggestion that the failings come down on the coaches, i don't necessarily know if it is or not, but if Jake Pickard is seemingly unable to successfully complete a 10 yard pass then there is a fundamental issue here.

Also we could be using the loan market more effectively rather than as a means to soften the landing for releasing a player. Giving Moxon,  for example,  5/10 minutes here and there isn't particularly beneficial to him unless it builds to something. IMO the  reason the last crop of players developed so well was partly the coaching from Johnston and McIntyre and mainly from playing in a good team at a level that they were able to play at. It somewhat unlikely that  we aren't going to be dropping down to playing part time jobbers this season so guys like Moxon/ Hooper would have been better off playing 90 minutes and impressing rather than being cheap bench fodder. If they can grasp the opportunity at a lower level then it can hopefully lead upwards. I'm not saying fling them into the juniors to play against hammer throwers as that standard is worse than the Under 20s but getting players who are at the stage of needing game time at a league1/2 club is the idea.

Naysmith in a short space of time has managed to point out some home truths about the club on the playing side, in that they haven't really given it the attention that it deserved or worse have been in denial about the process. He might have the answer and he might not but I'd trust the man who has first hand experience playing at a high level to know what is required to be successful more than the rest of the non playing staff at the club.

 

[weeredbook]

The under 20s are sometimes boys of 16 to 18 years old ,sometimes younger . Reserve football usually had your subs from the first team game and those not in the squad. So you had 6 to 8 players in or around the first team .The manager would more often than not be there casting his eye over the game .The team shape would be the same as the first team .Young players would be guided by the first team players and learn good habits .When you are playing against better players you concentrate on doing the simple things ,instead of knowing you have
the better of your opponent and picking up bad habits .Reserve teams used to bring in the odd trialist from the juniors and such like, and you picked up the odd gem .Old heads were in and around the team with experience and this rubbed off on the youngsters.

[Skyline Drifter]

I think the SFA are proposing bringing back Reserve football but not sure where thats at. The problem with having reserve football as well as u20s is twofold. Firstly cost - more teams and more games = more expense. Secondly with the Reserve team most likely at least half filled out with 20s they end up playing too many games and actually arranging a fixture list without playing successive days is quite difficult as we found out when we had 19s and Reserves in the old SFL.

And if you do away with 20s altogether then you end up with only half a dozen or so at that age group actually playing games.

Personally I prefer the current set up but think we should probably play more older subs bench players in it as for instance Morton tend to do. I suspect Gary Naysmith may end up doing that. We will see once the 20s restart in a fortnight.

[Monkey Tennis]

9 hours ago, Sloop John B said:

 

What exactly is the difference between reserve team football and Under 20s?  I'm pretty sure overage players are allowed to play anyway. Other teams are able to produce players in the current system at similar levels of budget. 

I'm not especially knowledgeable about youth development but there are a lot of concerning things to me at Queens and probably in general in Scotland. Firstly why are so many of the youth players are simply not physically ready to cope with senior football? I'm not expecting them to be shredded like Derek Lyle, but some upper body strength and conditioning would not go amiss. The point of having a youth team is to prepare them to be able to push for contention in the senior team so if they aren't physically ready then that is a failing on either the club for not being able to offer a gym session during training,  emphasising that as a professional footballer, it's your job to be as athletic as you possibly can be, or the players for not taking the responsibility for themselves if are actually provided with conditioning and nutrition plans. Though it's not exactly a secret that you have to be a pretty good athlete as well as a good technical player to go far these days.

There can be the suggestion that the failings come down on the coaches, i don't necessarily know if it is or not, but if Jake Pickard is seemingly unable to successfully complete a 10 yard pass then there is a fundamental issue here.

Also we could be using the loan market more effectively rather than as a means to soften the landing for releasing a player. Giving Moxon,  for example,  5/10 minutes here and there isn't particularly beneficial to him unless it builds to something. IMO the  reason the last crop of players developed so well was partly the coaching from Johnston and McIntyre and mainly from playing in a good team at a level that they were able to play at. It somewhat unlikely that  we aren't going to be dropping down to playing part time jobbers this season so guys like Moxon/ Hooper would have been better off playing 90 minutes and impressing rather than being cheap bench fodder. If they can grasp the opportunity at a lower level then it can hopefully lead upwards. I'm not saying fling them into the juniors to play against hammer throwers as that standard is worse than the Under 20s but getting players who are at the stage of needing game time at a league1/2 club is the idea.

Naysmith in a short space of time has managed to point out some home truths about the club on the playing side, in that they haven't really given it the attention that it deserved or worse have been in denial about the process. He might have the answer and he might not but I'd trust the man who has first hand experience playing at a high level to know what is required to be successful more than the rest of the non playing staff at the club.

 

There may well be some accurate observations in here, but again it strikes me as based on a lot of assumptions that rely on working back from a perceived outcome.

To suggest that poor passing from Pickard in the demanding environment of second tier full time football is evidence of coaching failure; makes no more sense than suggesting that the progress of Holt was evidence of genius in the way his footballing education unfolded.

Of course our structures and practices should be open to scrutiny, but I'm less convinced of the crisis than some appear to be.

[Swarley]

Oops, my fault. Realised the Minor Spelling error in the heading after it had gone. Dunce's hat and a seat in the corner for me.

I hate when that ahppens

[palmy_cammy]

There may well be some accurate observations in here, but again it strikes me as based on a lot of assumptions that rely on working back from a perceived outcome.
To suggest that poor passing from Pickard in the demanding environment of second tier full time football is evidence of coaching failure; makes no more sense than suggesting that the progress of Holt was evidence of genius in the way his footballing education unfolded.
Of course our structures and practices should be open to scrutiny, but I'm less convinced of the crisis than some appear to be.

You're focussing too much on the coaching points being raised and ignoring the main one raised by myself and a few others, which is lack of experience.

The difference between Holt and Pickard is that he got a season of playing in League 1, then a season in The Championship and is now in his second season in the Premiership. Is it any surprise Hooper is nowhere near ready when he's probably played less than 10 senior games in total?

Of course it could just be coincidence and we were blessed with an exceptional crop of talent at the same time. But given prior to that all we produced was Willie Gibson and Paul Burns then Jamie McAllister and David Lilley with probably a 10 year gap between each batch I very much doubt it.

Almost any other career requires you starting at the bottom rung, serving your time, and gaining the necessary experience to progress. I don't see why football should he any different.

[Monkey Tennis]

35 minutes ago, palmy_cammy said:

You're focussing too much on the coaching points being raised and ignoring the main one raised by myself and a few others, which is lack of experience.

The difference between Holt and Pickard is that he got a season of playing in League 1, then a season in The Championship and is now in his second season in the Premiership. Is it any surprise Hooper is nowhere near ready when he's probably played less than 10 senior games in total?

Of course it could just be coincidence and we were blessed with an exceptional crop of talent at the same time. But given prior to that all we produced was Willie Gibson and Paul Burns then Jamie McAllister and David Lilley with probably a 10 year gap between each batch I very much doubt it.

Almost any other career requires you starting at the bottom rung, serving your time, and gaining the necessary experience to progress. I don't see why football should he any different.

You're right - I focused on the part I disagreed with in disagreeing with it.

There might very well be a strong case for giving players experience of playing at a lower level when younger.  I think the criticism of coaching however relied on lots of guesswork.  

I'd also respectfully suggest that the difference between Holt and Pickard goes a bit beyond that which you imply.

[QosLoyal]

Exciting times with this midfield gelling nicely. 7 points from our last 3 away games and 8 goals is brilliant. Bring on the Hibees next week.

[outsider]

8 hours ago, weeredbook said:

The under 20s are sometimes boys of 16 to 18 years old ,sometimes younger . Reserve football usually had your subs from the first team game and those not in the squad. So you had 6 to 8 players in or around the first team .The manager would more often than not be there casting his eye over the game .The team shape would be the same as the first team .Young players would be guided by the first team players and learn good habits .When you are playing against better players you concentrate on doing the simple things ,instead of knowing you have
the better of your opponent and picking up bad habits .Reserve teams used to bring in the odd trialist from the juniors and such like, and you picked up the odd gem .Old heads were in and around the team with experience and this rubbed off on the youngsters.

This sums it up pretty well for me, certainly was the case at the last reserve games I seen.

[outsider]

17 hours ago, Sloop John B said:

 

What exactly is the difference between reserve team football and Under 20s?  I'm pretty sure overage players are allowed to play anyway. Other teams are able to produce players in the current system at similar levels of budget. 

I'm not especially knowledgeable about youth development but there are a lot of concerning things to me at Queens and probably in general in Scotland. Firstly why are so many of the youth players are simply not physically ready to cope with senior football? I'm not expecting them to be shredded like Derek Lyle, but some upper body strength and conditioning would not go amiss. The point of having a youth team is to prepare them to be able to push for contention in the senior team so if they aren't physically ready then that is a failing on either the club for not being able to offer a gym session during training,  emphasising that as a professional footballer, it's your job to be as athletic as you possibly can be, or the players for not taking the responsibility for themselves if are actually provided with conditioning and nutrition plans. Though it's not exactly a secret that you have to be a pretty good athlete as well as a good technical player to go far these days.

There can be the suggestion that the failings come down on the coaches, i don't necessarily know if it is or not, but if Jake Pickard is seemingly unable to successfully complete a 10 yard pass then there is a fundamental issue here.

Also we could be using the loan market more effectively rather than as a means to soften the landing for releasing a player. Giving Moxon,  for example,  5/10 minutes here and there isn't particularly beneficial to him unless it builds to something. IMO the  reason the last crop of players developed so well was partly the coaching from Johnston and McIntyre and mainly from playing in a good team at a level that they were able to play at. It somewhat unlikely that  we aren't going to be dropping down to playing part time jobbers this season so guys like Moxon/ Hooper would have been better off playing 90 minutes and impressing rather than being cheap bench fodder. If they can grasp the opportunity at a lower level then it can hopefully lead upwards. I'm not saying fling them into the juniors to play against hammer throwers as that standard is worse than the Under 20s but getting players who are at the stage of needing game time at a league1/2 club is the idea.

Naysmith in a short space of time has managed to point out some home truths about the club on the playing side, in that they haven't really given it the attention that it deserved or worse have been in denial about the process. He might have the answer and he might not but I'd trust the man who has first hand experience playing at a high level to know what is required to be successful more than the rest of the non playing staff at the club.

 

Weeredbook has summed up the difference between reserve team and 20's football pretty well so I'll leave it there.

I did have a wee chuckle when you mentioned conditioning and nutrition, I haven't a clue as to how those boys in the 20's manage to feed themselves on the £10 a week they get from Queens never mind worry about that they're eating the right food. A few years ago when the club brought in 10 16/17 year olds from England and put them in digs I know how hard it was for them to eat properly, the only thing that kept those boys going was the thought of making it as a footballer. What happened to those 10 boys? As far as I know Jake Pickard would've been the only one to have had a run with the first team, so now that he's away there's not one of them left. I'd imagine those 10 boys were hand picked and surely  the club would've been looking for some of them to make an impact on the first team, what went wrong?

I agree with you that the likes of Hooper/Moxon etc would benefit from being out on loan at a Div 2 or 3 club as long as they were playing regular, I can't see how playing for the 20's and sitting on the bench for the first team will be doing their development any good.

How much junior football have you seen? If you think it's a worse standard than the 20's you might be pleasantly surprised if you took in an Auchinleck, Glenafton, etc game, wouldn't fancy the chances of the 20's beating some of them tbh. Ayr utd have 20's lads out on loan in the Juniors, quite a few are at Annbank and play in the Ayrshire district league, some are at Cumnock and [I think] Glenafton.  I think it would do the young lads the world of good to get out of their comfort bubble of 20's football and into the real world of junior football. Yes it's more physical and I also believe faster, certainly don't have time to dwell on the ball as you do in 20's games. The physical nature of these games imo would develop these boys quicker, you'd soon know what you had as they'd either be up for the challenge or not.

The biggest problem I see with the 20's is that there'll be boys there just to make up the numbers, they're full time so there will have to be enough of them to have proper training sessions. Looking on the website there's 16 boys in the 20's squad and about 7/8 in the first team squad that are really 20's players. So 24 players, not hard to work out that some will not be getting game time at the 20's. Yes quite a few are/were out on loan at South of Scotland league clubs, [got to be a lower standard than junior football] and some were/are at Gretna which is fair enough.

I think the best option would be to bring back reserve team football and scrap the 20's and possibly change the youth ages to 14, 16 and 18. That would give the head of youth at Queens plenty of years to watch the development of these younger lads to enable him to be able to single out the ones he thinks have the potential to take the next step. That way you'd have the first team squad and maybe 8 u20's who would train with the first team and get game time with the reserves, with either the manager or his assistant taking in these reserve games they could see for themselves what boys are developing and which ones aren't. The benefit for these boys to be training with the first team and just being part of the squad is obvious, likewise for the gaffer to see them day in, day out and to set up the reserve teams the same as he sets up the first team and to watch how they adapt to the way he wants them to play has got to benefit him as well.

[Skyline Drifter]

26 minutes ago, outsider said:

Weeredbook has summed up the difference between reserve team and 20's football pretty well so I'll leave it there.

I did have a wee chuckle when you mentioned conditioning and nutrition, I haven't a clue as to how those boys in the 20's manage to feed themselves on the £10 a week they get from Queens never mind worry about that they're eating the right food. A few years ago when the club brought in 10 16/17 year olds from England and put them in digs I know how hard it was for them to eat properly, the only thing that kept those boys going was the thought of making it as a footballer. What happened to those 10 boys? As far as I know Jake Pickard would've been the only one to have had a run with the first team, so now that he's away there's not one of them left. I'd imagine those 10 boys were hand picked and surely  the club would've been looking for some of them to make an impact on the first team, what went wrong?

The ones living away from home are also having accommodation, education and their morning and evening meals paid for by the club. They also work extra hours at the Arena or KGV and are paid for it.

The 10 boys in 2013 were actually 8 boys as two from Carlisle never actually came in the end. The other 8 have all now left the club as players with the departure of Jake Pickard although Dan Armstrong is still here in a Community Development position whilst playing for Gretna. Greg Moorhouse left homesick after about a month (he was behind Dan as 2nd choice keeper and not getting games). John Ackroyd parted ways with the club due to off field issues and was last heard of touring Australia. I think he gave up football. Matthew McCarthy didn't progress as well as hoped initially and didn't get a second year. No idea what he's doing now. Jak Ashton was offered a 3rd year at the end of his second but chose to move back to the North East with Gateshead. Nick Cassidy's career was stalled by a cruciate ligament injury in his first 6 months with us. He came back for a second year but spent most of it on loan and left at the end of that year, also joining Gateshead where I believe he was doing quite well but has recently blown his cruciate again so faces a long lay off once more. Josh Scott was progressing well but decided to leave the club last year and return to the North East where he's playing for Newcastle Benfield.

In 2014 we brought 3 up from Carlisle, Jack Dickinson, Jack Brannan and Owen Moxon. All three made it as far as first team squad members but Jack Dickinson turned down a new contract last summer to go part time as he wanted to be an electrician or something like that. He's playing for Gretna now but not available for them every week due to work. Jack Brannan left at New Year there after Gary Naysmith took over and Moxey is still here and has made several first team appearances.

In 2015 we brought another 5 up but had enormous problems with FIFA not granting us permission to register them. Logan Powell left after about 2 months. Rhys Evans was registered without a problem as he was a year older and already 18 but he's leaving us this week to return to the North East. Ryan Nelson is still with us having eventually turned 18 before registering. He has several appearances on the first team bench so far but hasn't got on the pitch. Jack Devlin and James Martin were not allowed to register by FIFA and eventually returned home. James Martin turned down a new contract in the summer once he turned 18 and signed for Hartlepool which we couldn't prevent as he was never formally registered to us. He's now played several games for their first team. Jack Devlin joined Newcastle Benfield and scored a bucketload of goals before signing for Stoke City this week for their u23 squad. Very frustrating.

[Homer Thompson]

2 hours ago, outsider said:

 

I agree with you that the likes of Hooper/Moxon etc would benefit from being out on loan at a Div 2 or 3 club as long as they were playing regular, I can't see how playing for the 20's and sitting on the bench for the first team will be doing their development any good.

 

Loaning players out isnt that easy though, I imagine. The player has to be good enough to get games and the club has to be geographically suitable, as well as actually want them. You can hardly sign a young local player and then expect them to go to Arbroath two or three times a week just to get regular football. Aiden Smith was considered by most to be the best prospect in the current crop of youths and hes not even starting regularly for Annan. Its hard to see how some of our other youngsters would get any game time at that level.

[weeredbook]

If they can't get a game at that level .I would suggest the club for them is Sands Snooker .

[Skyline Drifter]

2 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Loaning players out isnt that easy though, I imagine. The player has to be good enough to get games and the club has to be geographically suitable, as well as actually want them. You can hardly sign a young local player and then expect them to go to Arbroath two or three times a week just to get regular football. Aiden Smith was considered by most to be the best prospect in the current crop of youths and hes not even starting regularly for Annan. Its hard to see how some of our other youngsters would get any game time at that level.

Yes, that is another practical issue. Aidan Smith doesn't drive. Or at least he does drive but doesn't have a car. Annan was realistically the only possible loan destination for him. Or somewhere that has someone else travelling from Dumfries to training and games. East Fife with Slattery maybe. Hooper has been on loan to Queens Park. Moxon does drive but he's Carlisle based. There's a limit to the number of geographically practical destinations for him too. They can't all go to Annan.

Also, there's a marginal decision to be made between sending players out for their own good and our long term benefit and leaving yourself over-short to cover injuries and suspensions. In hindsight I'm sure we regretted sending Connor Murray out to Gretna in the first half of the season when we were struck by injuries to Hilson, Rigg, Tapping, Dykes etc and he would have been certainly on our bench and probably gotten some game time. Possibly likewise at the time Aidan though he's gone back since. With Marshall and Hamill missing today Scott Hooper was our only defensive cover for the bench. If he had been away we'd have had to pull in probably Bob Murray from the 20's or ask Kyle Jacobs to fill in at the back which loses us a lot in midfield. Today's booking means Andy Dowie will miss the Morton game in a fortnight too. If Hooper goes before the window shuts, as he's clearly been told he can, then we'll have no central cover that day, especially if Bob Murray goes back out on loan again before then which he so far hasn't.

[A-Mac]

Important win and into fifth spot, playoff hopes still alive and a real possibility.

 

Looking forward to watching the highlights. Mon the South!!

[die hard doonhamer]

I'm starting to have confidence in Naysmith, I like the way he is going about things. I certainly think that we should now be looking up rather than down again.

[outsider]

1 hour ago, Mr X said:

Loaning players out isnt that easy though, I imagine. The player has to be good enough to get games and the club has to be geographically suitable, as well as actually want them. You can hardly sign a young local player and then expect them to go to Arbroath two or three times a week just to get regular football. Aiden Smith was considered by most to be the best prospect in the current crop of youths and hes not even starting regularly for Annan. Its hard to see how some of our other youngsters would get any game time at that level.

Fair points Mr X, don't know what the answer is but it isn't sitting on the bench on a Saturday and playing for the 20's during the week. If the youngsters aren't good enough to get game time in the 3rd division as you suggest perhaps that should tell the club something? The next step down is the Lowland league, a few of the lads were out on loan at Gretna earlier I believe, perhaps Gretna and Dalbeattie Star are the best options.