The Queen of the South thread

[Slipmat]

14 minutes ago, HighlandQueen said:

Utter guff. Give Marv until the middle December to get injured players back and some momentum. If not then it’s a results business and get someone else in before the window. I still have faith in him to turn it around. 

My post was in the main a criticism of the board for *possibly* not being entirely honest about the reasons for sacking Gibson.  If their actions last December were purely down to poor results then surely they should assess Bartley's performance by the same parameters.

Your loyalty to Bartley is starting to sound like Nadine Dorries's defence of Boris Johnson.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Slipmat

[Biblemaster]

What happened to the Dykes money? We got a financial boost from that would probably be 2 or 3 seasons income for most clubs at this level.  I don't really see why we should have a smaller budget than Hamilton, although they have been good at producing players through the years and may have had a similar windfall?

[Monkey Tennis]

12 minutes ago, Slipmat said:

What's becoming increasing clear is something that @Monkey Tennis alluded to - that for the last 10-15 years or so we have punched well above our weight and we are now back at our proper, historic level in the Scottish football ladder.  There are a number of factors which contributed to us having spent the majority of this century in the Championship:

1  -  Playing staff wise, we benefited greatly from the implosion of Gretna FC.

2  -  Davie Rae spunking money we didn't have building a squad we couldn't afford.

3  -  A batch of at least 5 youth players good enough to compete at a high level all fortuitously breaking into the first team at the same time.

4  -  Stephen Dobbie.  It can't be understated how much his presence and ability kept us in the Championship.  A player who we really had no right to have.

5  -  "Big" clubs such as Hearts, Rangers, Hibs, Dundee United all making a total arse of things and getting relegated at around the same time, then failing to bounce straight back giving us (well, me anyway) a false impression that we were capable of challenging them despite the huge budget differences.

There are also factors which have led to us being where we are now:

1  -  Poor results / dross football = falling crowds.  We are probably attracting no more than half the crowds that we did in the aftermath of the Connolly promotion and the novelty of playing in a division higher than many of us could remember, plus the knock on effect of the Cup Final appearance/Europe.

2  -  The knock-on effect of significant enforced playing budget restrictions after we came close to financial collapse.

3  -  Hardly any progression from the youth team to the first team.  Connor Murray, Jake Pickard, Lyndon Dykes and Lewis Gibson are probably the only "home-grown" players to have stepped up over the last 10 years or so.

4  -  The "East Kilbride" effect, where more and more clubs at lower levels have emerged who are capable of paying higher wages than we can.

5  -  Scattergun recruitment, whether it be players from English non-league clubs who haven't been up to the job or, as per this season, a misguided policy where we have ended up overloaded with inexperienced youngsters and few players with more than a couple of seasons experience on the books.  This in turn leads to...

6  -  The annual problem of having to rebuild the entire squad in a few weeks over the summer.

Thing is, if we were a part-time outfit, we could probably accept our current position.  But being full-time somehow raises expectations even though there is no actual evidence to suggest that the full-time players within our budget are any better than players at the higher end of the part-time scale.

A good post.

There's nothing much to argue with in either the list of factors that kept us in the second tier for so !ong, or the list of those accounting for our current status.

I don't know, however, that I'd quite say we spent the last 2 decades "punching above our weight", before normal service got resumed.

I'd see our natural surroundings as the Championship to be honest.  Not to the extent that we're currently wildly out of step of course, but size wise, I'd put us in the Ayr, Raith type bracket.  There certainly aren't many bigger clubs who are currently beneath us.  In fact I'd say that Queens is probably the biggest club in Scotland, not to have graced the top flight in my life time.

There probably is something cyclical at play.  I think we may have to make ourselves at home here (or below here) for a while.  A hope that we can again become established in the second tier, should be realistic though.

 

[Monkey Tennis]

I'm not wanting to be too harsh about Bartley's latest post-match interview.  After all, what the Hell do you say week after week, following depressingly repetitive displays of ineptitude?

However, I do worry that he's kidding himself a bit.  He fixates on the defending of a throw in ahead of the goal, as if the entire performance hinged on it.  It didn't.

Had we dealt better with that situation yesterday, what's the likeliest outcome?  We'd probably have drawn 0-0.  Alright, it would have stopped the run of defeats, but would have still represented another poor result at home, would still have meant another poor performance and would still have been a disappointing conclusion to a dismal first quarter.

He talks about taking responsibility, but wants to instead heap it on another individual.  I honestly don't know what I'd rather he said, but I think he needs to be more honest, perhaps to himself, about what we're producing across entire matches.

[Rjc-1988]

30 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I'm not wanting to be too harsh about Bartley's latest post-match interview.  After all, what the Hell do you say week after week, following depressingly repetitive displays of ineptitude?

However, I do worry that he's kidding himself a bit.  He fixates on the defending of a throw in ahead of the goal, as if the entire performance hinged on it.  It didn't.

Had we dealt better with that situation yesterday, what's the likeliest outcome?  We'd probably have drawn 0-0.  Alright, it would have stopped the run of defeats, but would have still represented another poor result at home, would still have meant another poor performance and would still have been a disappointing conclusion to a dismal first quarter.

He talks about taking responsibility, but wants to instead heap it on another individual.  I honestly don't know what I'd rather he said, but I think he needs to be more honest, perhaps to himself, about what we're producing across entire matches.

Spot on - these interviews are a no win situation for Managers after a succession of defeats. He can’t win - if he comes out and slaughters the players they go in the huff and down tools (some might think they have already). 

Most Managers do the same thing when on a bad run - they delude themselves that a good run is just round the corner. Bartley talks about wishing there was another league game on Tuesday to put things right. To be honest I’m relieved that there isn’t another league game for a couple of weeks as we have hit rock bottom. You have to be mad to be a Manager at this level - poor old Marvin thought this would be a stepping stone to bigger things but he really hasn’t got a clue how to sort this mess out and when he looks objectively at the squad he has assembled he must wish he was still at Livvy.

 

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, Artemis said:

He could say what every other manager of a shite team says after their latest defeat - “If we could just cut out the individual errors we’d be fine”.

He kinda did.

(Is that the joke?)

Edited October 8, 2023 by Monkey Tennis

[die hard doonhamer]

4 hours ago, Biblemaster said:

What happened to the Dykes money? We got a financial boost from that would probably be 2 or 3 seasons income for most clubs at this level.  I don't really see why we should have a smaller budget than Hamilton, although they have been good at producing players through the years and may have had a similar windfall?

What club do you think is only turning over £70k-£80k each season? Prize money for last in this league is more than that on its own. 

[Slipmat]

If we were to go to part-time next season we'd have to cancel or renegotiate the contracts of Church, Brydon, Doherty, Cochrane, Hutchinson and McKechnie as they are all signed until 2025.  I can't see any of that group wanting to go part-time given their relatively young age, and Cochrane, Brydon and Church could probably get other full-time gigs fairly easily.

[Alex Nesovic's Barmy Army]

9 hours ago, Slipmat said:

If we were to go to part-time next season we'd have to cancel or renegotiate the contracts of Church, Brydon, Doherty, Cochrane, Hutchinson and McKechnie as they are all signed until 2025.  I can't see any of that group wanting to go part-time given their relatively young age, and Cochrane, Brydon and Church could probably get other full-time gigs fairly easily.

In fact, Church went from PT to FT by signing for us, unless I'm mistaken?

[Fae_the_'briggs]

9 hours ago, Slipmat said:

If we were to go to part-time next season we'd have to cancel or renegotiate the contracts of Church, Brydon, Doherty, Cochrane, Hutchinson and McKechnie as they are all signed until 2025.  I can't see any of that group wanting to go part-time given their relatively young age, and Cochrane, Brydon and Church could probably get other full-time gigs fairly easily.

I'm hoping we can stay full time but understand the argument for change. IF we do go part - time it might not be a sudden jump but maybe a  hybrid model to see if it's successful, the contracted players would then be able to see out their deals with maybe another few FT added. It looks a long way off happening at present but if we do get back to the Championship I would prefer it as being as full timers. 

[Greenacres]

41 minutes ago, Fae_the_'briggs said:

I'm hoping we can stay full time but understand the argument for change. IF we do go part - time it might not be a sudden jump but maybe a  hybrid model to see if it's successful, the contracted players would then be able to see out their deals with maybe another few FT added. It looks a long way off happening at present but if we do get back to the Championship I would prefer it as being as full timers. 

Why would you prefer us being full time what benefit do you think we get .

We are no better organised or fitter than any part time team.

At our level of budget we can only get a majority of young players which has been shown not to work for a few seasons .We have to try something different at least try the hybrid model then we would hopefully get the best of both worlds .

No idea how easy it would be to try but it has worked successfully at Raith and Airdrie take advice from those clubs on how to set it up .

Some  very optimistic fans still think we can make the playoffs but we are miles away from that.

[HighlandQueen]

19 hours ago, Slipmat said:

My post was in the main a criticism of the board for *possibly* not being entirely honest about the reasons for sacking Gibson.  If their actions last December were purely down to poor results then surely they should assess Bartley's performance by the same parameters.

Your loyalty to Bartley is starting to sound like Nadine Dorries's defence of Boris Johnson.

Ridiculous comment. Intelligent young manager, like his approach on fitness and youth. Yes we need more steel and have to start winning games but give the bloke a chance. If still the same in 6 weeks then yeah have to look at a different path. He is a breath of fresh air compared to many of the tired old hacks knocking about. Plus do you really want to pay 18 months compensation on a knee jerk reaction. 

[Alex Nesovic's Barmy Army]

2 hours ago, HighlandQueen said:

Ridiculous comment. Intelligent young manager, like his approach on fitness and youth. Yes we need more steel and have to start winning games but give the bloke a chance. If still the same in 6 weeks then yeah have to look at a different path. He is a breath of fresh air compared to many of the tired old hacks knocking about. Plus do you really want to pay 18 months compensation on a knee jerk reaction. 

 

2 hours ago, Greenacres said:

Why would you prefer us being full time what benefit do you think we get .

We are no better organised or fitter than any part time team.

At our level of budget we can only get a majority of young players which has been shown not to work for a few seasons .We have to try something different at least try the hybrid model then we would hopefully get the best of both worlds .

No idea how easy it would be to try but it has worked successfully at Raith and Airdrie take advice from those clubs on how to set it up .

Some  very optimistic fans still think we can make the playoffs but we are miles away from that.

Two posts one after another. One praising Marvin for his focus on fitness and the other criticising the fitness levels at the club.

Some place, this.

[bigbairn76]

1-0

[Rjc-1988]

18 hours ago, HighlandQueen said:

Ridiculous comment. Intelligent young manager, like his approach on fitness and youth. Yes we need more steel and have to start winning games but give the bloke a chance. If still the same in 6 weeks then yeah have to look at a different path. He is a breath of fresh air compared to many of the tired old hacks knocking about. Plus do you really want to pay 18 months compensation on a knee jerk reaction. 

I am not getting this great approach on fitness and youth - most part time teams are fitter, stronger than we are and their game management is vastly superior. Many of them are managed by “old hacks” who show a much better interpretation of “how to win football matches” than MB does. They see that we are a “one trick pony” over passing the ball in our own half and taking 5/6 passes when 2/3 will do. The results don’t lie I’m afraid and if we were actually dominating games and missing a hatful of chances every week patience would be totally justified but we are invariably second best and this is only L1. 

This concentration on youth makes our squad totally lopsided with far too many players coming together with neither the experience or ability required to compete at this level. Worse than that we are playing loanees who are no better than the players we have. Take young Kennedy as an example - I only saw him fleetingly pre season but I was really impressed with him and he looks as though he can play in a number of positions. Gibson is a great prospect but the best he can hope for these days is getting thrown on with 15 minutes to go when we are chasing the game? 
 

I am not advocating a sacking because of the compensation but unless the Manager re-assesses his strategy and wises up quickly that will be the inevitable outcome.

 

[bod]

4 hours ago, Rjc-1988 said:

I am not getting this great approach on fitness and youth - most part time teams are fitter, stronger than we are and their game management is vastly superior. Many of them are managed by “old hacks” who show a much better interpretation of “how to win football matches” than MB does. They see that we are a “one trick pony” over passing the ball in our own half and taking 5/6 passes when 2/3 will do. The results don’t lie I’m afraid and if we were actually dominating games and missing a hatful of chances every week patience would be totally justified but we are invariably second best and this is only L1. 

This concentration on youth makes our squad totally lopsided with far too many players coming together with neither the experience or ability required to compete at this level. Worse than that we are playing loanees who are no better than the players we have. Take young Kennedy as an example - I only saw him fleetingly pre season but I was really impressed with him and he looks as though he can play in a number of positions. Gibson is a great prospect but the best he can hope for these days is getting thrown on with 15 minutes to go when we are chasing the game? 
 

I am not advocating a sacking because of the compensation but unless the Manager re-assesses his strategy and wises up quickly that will be the inevitable outcome.

 

Very good post.

Can I suggest you save 5 mins of your life and stop posting the obvious, especially when some are totally blinkered to what you're saying?

[Rjc-1988]

1 hour ago, bod said:

Very good post.

Can I suggest you save 5 mins of your life and stop posting the obvious, especially when some are totally blinkered to what you're saying?

Yes you are probably right. I have absolutely no problem with people holding a completely different view to me but so many supporters of all clubs fall for this superfluous waffle from Managers and frankly it counts for nothing if the product on the pitch is continually sub-standard. I hope he miraculously turns this round and this debate becomes academic.

[Slipmat]

On 09/10/2023 at 10:25, HighlandQueen said:

Ridiculous comment. Intelligent young manager, like his approach on fitness and youth. Yes we need more steel and have to start winning games but give the bloke a chance. If still the same in 6 weeks then yeah have to look at a different path. He is a breath of fresh air compared to many of the tired old hacks knocking about. Plus do you really want to pay 18 months compensation on a knee jerk reaction. 

Well, this Saturday gives us the ideal game to put your argument to the test since we're playing a part time team, at least half of whom who are likely to be on the wrong side of 30, managed by the oldest hack in the business.

[BB_Bino]

On 08/10/2023 at 17:44, Rjc-1988 said:

You have to be mad to be a Manager at this level - poor old Marvin thought this would be a stepping stone to bigger things but he really hasn’t got a clue how to sort this mess out and when he looks objectively at the squad he has assembled he must wish he was still at Livvy.

Which, as someone who regularly saw Marvin play for Bournemouth and Leyton Orient, is very surprising because he should have gained plenty of this kind of experience in League 1 and 2 in England (think he was a non-league player before that also) or would have had contacts that could help having been there.

[Diamonds are Forever]

On 09/10/2023 at 09:29, Fae_the_'briggs said:

I'm hoping we can stay full time but understand the argument for change. IF we do go part - time it might not be a sudden jump but maybe a  hybrid model to see if it's successful, the contracted players would then be able to see out their deals with maybe another few FT added. It looks a long way off happening at present but if we do get back to the Championship I would prefer it as being as full timers. 

 

The thing about going part-time is that you then move in to a market where there are other clubs not even in the same league who could potentially outbid you for players. In recent years clubs like Darvel, East Kilbride, Kelty and Cove would be paying as much or more than I'd imagine a part-time Queens would be. As an example, the season before we signed Dylan Easton he was at Kelty in the Lowland League, he then moves to us and wins POTY. It wasn't like he was some past-it player in his 30s, he was in his peak years and dropped to Lowland League for a season because of the money on offer, it was only the offer of full-time (or 'hybrid') with us that moved him back up the league. Granted it's not the norm, but it's not necessarily the case that by going part-time you'd automatically hoover up the best part-timers, there has never been more money down the leagues looking to sign good players on part-time deals. If you are offering full-time football then you at least have something else to offer. That said, the things mentioned up the thread about being full-time and getting the cast-offs from every other club are true and make it very hard to be successful with low budget full-time.

Airdrie tried everything over the last decade with varying levels of failure until recently where we were consistently doing well in League 1 with a Hybrid model. However in reality the only geniune starter who was part-time was Callum Gallagher, so it's a bit misleading calling it hybrid, we were/are effectively full-time in terms of the players who are playing every week.

I guess like anything it's a combination of how you execute whatever strategy you choose, and what budget you have. But if you look across the last decade part-time clubs don't generally get promoted. Cove did but they were paying huge salaries to players too good for the league, which Queens wouldn't be doing. Brechin did, but we all know what happened to them as a result. And Arbroath, who are the one real success story. That wouldn't be enough to convince me to change though.

League 1 has also been very strong in recent years which won't last forever, so I'd be wary of making a decision like going part-time when in a year or 2 you could find the league looking much easier and Queens being the main full-time team if you stayed full-time.

Anyway, not my concern but I find it an interesting discussion because it's something Airdrie chopped and changed for a decade in search of the answer.