Thorongil Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, oaksoft said: For some at the bottom I'd be prepared to accept this but for the majority, life is considerably easier than it was 40 years ago - financially and otherwise. I dunno about that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambomo Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 I don’t think it’s just a lifestyle/cost thing., though those are big factors for many. Women are seen to be people who should want kids, it’s kind of assumed that wanting them is born into us in some way. It’s not the case at all I think for a lot of us. I can only speak for myself but I have never at any point felt a desire to have kids in fact I knew when I was a little girl I wouldn’t and my mum told me when I was around 14 that I told her I didn’t like them. She probably thought I’d grow out of it but I never did. I think now women have more choice than even my own parents did. If we don’t want it for our lives we aren’t forced into motherhood as previous generations were. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorongil Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 The more educated a society is and the higher the standard of living, the lower the birth rate will be. This is because having kids is, for a large part, soul destroying labour, pressure, obligation and responsibility. If you care about them that is. I have 2 and could not possibly have any more. They are great kids but they have taken so much out of both me and my wife. Not their fault, just the reality of parenthood. I think there is something not quite right or a level of being unevolved socially or psychologically if you have loads of kids. Any more than 3 is insanity and is unfair on the kids themselves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson Park Boy Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, Thorongil said: The more educated a society is and the higher the standard of living, the lower the birth rate will be. This is because having kids is, for a large part, soul destroying labour, pressure, obligation and responsibility. If you care about them that is. I have 2 and could not possibly have any more. They are great kids but they have taken so much out of both me and my wife. Not their fault, just the reality of parenthood. I think there is something not quite right or a level of being unevolved socially or psychologically if you have loads of kids. Any more than 3 is insanity and is unfair on the kids themselves. Yes, that seems about right. We had 3 and that was the maximum for us but, of course, everyone’s different. The great bit is that when you get them past the horrible stage, you end up with great friends and, all going well, lovely grandchildren where you get all the joy without most of the work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Jambomo said: I don’t think it’s just a lifestyle/cost thing., though those are big factors for many. Women are seen to be people who should want kids, it’s kind of assumed that wanting them is born into us in some way. It’s not the case at all I think for a lot of us. I can only speak for myself but I have never at any point felt a desire to have kids in fact I knew when I was a little girl I wouldn’t and my mum told me when I was around 14 that I told her I didn’t like them. She probably thought I’d grow out of it but I never did. I think now women have more choice than even my own parents did. If we don’t want it for our lives we aren’t forced into motherhood as previous generations were. Have you had pressure from your family or society to have kids? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH33 Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Jambomo said: I don’t think it’s just a lifestyle/cost thing., though those are big factors for many. Women are seen to be people who should want kids, it’s kind of assumed that wanting them is born into us in some way. It’s not the case at all I think for a lot of us. I can only speak for myself but I have never at any point felt a desire to have kids in fact I knew when I was a little girl I wouldn’t and my mum told me when I was around 14 that I told her I didn’t like them. She probably thought I’d grow out of it but I never did. I think now women have more choice than even my own parents did. If we don’t want it for our lives we aren’t forced into motherhood as previous generations were. I always wanted kids but I know others who don't and respect and understand that. It's hard work, you have no money and peeing results in four simultaneous crises that need you now! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMCs Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, oaksoft said: In terms of multiples of income required to secure a loan and also the size of the deposit required I would absolutely agree. In terms of monthly mortgage repayments and specifically monthly rent (which was what the original point was) then no, not at the moment, for the majority of people. That's not the case. See page 15 in this report. BN161.pdf EDIT: apologies I meant page 12 Edited July 17, 2022 by DMCs 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bairnardo Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 1 minute ago, oaksoft said: Mate, instead of trying to score points off me, you need to talk to some actual women. You've tried that before mate, when you were lecturing everyone about being dirty b*****d men, but then you refused to the same approach by talking to trans people when you were "just trying to understand" that particular issue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 Just now, oaksoft said: Mate, instead of trying to score points off me, you need to talk to some actual women. I'm not trying to score points, I thought I was having a debate and was asking you the basis for your opinion. If you want to be a silly old fool about it then we'll leave it there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alert Mongoose Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) It's absolutely right that people should have the choice and be free from personal implications from those choices. But somewhere down the line we need to work out who is going to support an aging population. The birth rate we currently have is being propped up to a material degree by people who are really struggling to look after themselves never mind more children. I'm the first to admit to glancing (with a hint of jealousy) over the fence at those who have who have decided not to have kids from a lifestyle point of view. However I, rightly or wrongly, see that as an extension of the me, me, me culture that is going to get society in trouble further down the line. Edited July 17, 2022 by Alert Mongoose -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bairnardo Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 Just now, oaksoft said: Did I? Yeah you did mate. You were certainly offered that advice a few times in the thread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bairnardo Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 I don't recall refusing anything. Stop misrepresenting my views. And there's no need to put "just trying to understand" in quotes given that not one of you could explain what a woman was (except for one ridiculous attempt by Welshy I think who made the ludicrous claim that a woman is anyone who wants to be one - in other words a woman is a woman - what a farcical cyclic word salad that was). [emoji23]Fair play mate that did get a wee chuckle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorongil Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 17 minutes ago, oaksoft said: Which part? The people at the bottom struggling more nowadays or the majority of people finding things easier now? Both, I think. Though it’s very complicated. In most ways there has never been a better time to be alive than right now, but in many ways people encounter challenges that are different and in some incidences greater than the challenges faced in 1980. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted July 17, 2022 Author Share Posted July 17, 2022 It’s odd - there is societal pressure on women to have children but at the same time there is societal pressure against it. People referring to bringing up children as being a waste of their lives in this thread is a good example of this. The opprobrium dished out to “full time mummies” is another example. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorongil Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 17 minutes ago, oaksoft said: That's the bit which rankles my daughters. It's the assumption from older people (usually other women) that they don't really know what they're talking about when they say they don't want kids. It's great to see so many women make these sorts of decision for themselves but there's definitely a pressure of expectation. People mean well but they don't realise how shite they can make young women feel who don't want to have kids. It doesn't even end when they become too old for kids because then the questions start to be about "why did you not have kids". I wouldn't want to be the person who asked either of my two that particular question. There's cultural aspects to it as well. Some cultures are very difficult to deal with for those who want to do anything differently from the norm. From my perspective, my wife and I never raise the issue of grandkids. If it happens, it happens. Either way, it's none of our business and we don't stick our noses in. You just have to respect people's right to make their own decisions in life and give them space to do just that. They know we respect whatever they decide and that's as far as our involvement goes. One final note is that when they find life partners, they're going to have to address that issue as early as possible to make sure they don't store up problems for the future with their partner or their partner's family. Things would be a lot better if people just left others alone to live life their own way TBH. 100%. Hard to see how anyone can disagree with this. I’m male and I remember from about the age of 22 onward being pressured and asked awkward questions about when would I find a nice girl, get married, settle down, have kids. I started to dread family events, as I was absolutely being judged on this stuff. At about 26 I met my now wife and all that stuff followed but I felt a lot of social pressure before that and it was a relief to be free of it. I will never do that stuff to my kids, or to anyone really. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorongil Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, ICTChris said: It’s odd - there is societal pressure on women to have children but at the same time there is societal pressure against it. People referring to bringing up children as being a waste of their lives in this thread is a good example of this. The opprobrium dished out to “full time mummies” is another example. Mostly all of that competing pressure, bizarrely, comes from women. They are largely hierarchical in nature and become vexed if someone is taking a path which doesn’t seem fitting, then when that path is followed there is a need to keep other women down and “in their place”. Women want other women to fit within the conceptual hierarchy and then to remain in position within it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richey Edwards Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, oaksoft said: It's because it validates their own life choices. Incidentally, men do similar things to other men. I remember taking a lot of heat from male friends and family members when I moved jobs every few years in my early days and wasn't part of a union - they were all union paid one-company-for-lifers. Hi Jose. How are you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 49 minutes ago, oaksoft said: I have dealt with this particular report in another response earlier. The evils of taking averages literally is what you want to watch for. You didn't exactly "deal with it" You said something nonsensical and came up with alternative data which was shit, while saying you wouldn't believe evidence. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambomo Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Moonster said: Have you had pressure from your family or society to have kids? Not from friends or family, fortunately they don’t care at all. I have had comments from people, one woman told me (I was about 18 at the time) I was selfish because my parents would want grandkids which was funny because they actually really never wanted grandkids at all - I actually don’t think my mum liked kids much either. Another woman seemed kind of - insulted? For some reason. I never knew why. Most people haven’t cared though. Edited July 17, 2022 by Jambomo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bairnardo Posted July 17, 2022 Share Posted July 17, 2022 Not from friends of family, fortunately they don’t care at all. I have had comments from people, one woman told me (I was about 18 at the time) I was selfish because my parents would want grandkids which was funny because they actually really never wanted grandkids at all - I actually don’t think my mum liked kids much either. Another woman seemed kind of - insulted? For some reason. I never knew why. Most people haven’t cared though.I think theres a similar attitude among an older generation to the likes of divorce. Whe you hear of folk doing the absolutely correct thing and parting ways if unhappy, you also hear of lectures from parents about how "in our day we stuck it out". Im not even convinced its about wanting others to be as miserable as they were or whatever, I just think it's about the nostalgia of believing their way was definitely right. It's not your day m9, and we're not shelling our lives into the dirt for some foolish notion of pride or avoiding the village curtain twitchers. A generation who believe shagging is only for making weans 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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