How do you solve a problem like the Scottish Premiership?

[AndyM]

44 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

Aye, I'm really looking forward to this Saturday. More so than I have to a game for quite a while. No idea how it'll go, but that's what the fitba is meant to be like.

And that's what it's meant to be like. Back in my younger days it was "Win or lose we'll be on the booze".

Assume it would be no different if you followed Hearts or Aberdeen.  I have real admiration for those Hibees going to Parkhead this weekend. Arguably the most pointless soul crushing journey outside of a trip to fucking IKEA with the Mrs.

Edited March 14, 2023 by AndyM

[Falcor Roar]

Who's finding £1m to get a player like Hatate? Ignoring the £30k a week in wages, the question whether a player of that calibre wants to play for Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen and not play in the Champions League. And ignoring the money you need to spend on staff scouting or a manager who knows that market.

Obviously also ignoring all the big money they spent on all their other players, of which they can bring 5 off their bench now to turn the screw late in games.

[Swello]

When you look at the rich tapestry of coverage on the Scottish Premiership page of our celebrated national broadcaster, I'm surprised anyone's got anything to complain about. 

 

[VincentGuerin]

1 minute ago, AndyM said:

And that's what it's meant to be like. Back in my younger days it was "Win or lose we'll be on the booze".

Assume it would be no different if you followed Hearts or Aberdeen.  I have real admiration for those Hibees going to Parkhead this weekend. Arguably the most pointless soul crushing journey outside of a trip to fucking IKEA.

I went last week, but most of my group that I go with have agreed that we're not going back next season. Hopefully it'll be a Saturday game and we can take the day off and go to a game in England or something. It's just a waste of time.

[bennett]

46 minutes ago, Swello said:

When you look at the rich tapestry of coverage on the Scottish Premiership page of our celebrated national broadcaster, I'm surprised anyone's got anything to complain about. 

 

Has Isa from Still game got a job with BBC Scotland. 

[tarapoa]

I think Queens Park's imminent rise to be the alternative non-bigot brother option to ensure the largest city is represented in the top flight now means that the two freakshows can happily be let go to find whatever league suits them.

I am struggling to see any league in Europe when there is such distorted resources between one or two clubs and the rest.  

There is still slight enthusiasm for playing Sevco, mainly due to sheer distaste for them - Celtic games just feel like a trip to the dentist, and are invariably at $hite times like 1230.

Edited March 15, 2023 by tarapoa

[Kapowzer]

4 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

It won't happen, but I think you'd make a huge difference while running a pretty fair ship by saying clubs can keep 50% of their European money, while the other half goes between the other clubs in their league system. Successful clubs would still get a huge leg-up, but other clubs would have a swing at competing.

Here's the rub though, if that happened at the start of next season would we see an improvement in quality or would the likes of RIcki Lamie suddenly go from £2k a week to £5k (which would be mental).

The other issue would be what if the OF leave, then there is a good chance our two way league would develop into a three way one as yourselves, Hibs and Aberdeen all have similar sized home attendances and revenues. Hearts are best placed at present to make hay while the sun is shining and build a warchest and successful team with it due to the guarantee group stages of the Conference League and a chance of Europa.

What would make it interesting that your 20k fans and revenues would maybe only be 4x to 5x more than the middle or the road clubs unlike the 18-20x nonsense we have at present.

As I conveyed I can understand the OF's plight when it comes to competing in Europe but the thing that hasn't sunk into them, their fans or any media I've consumed is how it is exactly the same uphill battle we face domestically. The only solution is for UEFA to do something and mandate it universally. Also, as covered by @RandomGuy. when the colts teams are predominately foreign based players there a big hole in justifying the home grown argument for them only 18 months into "the experiment".

At present our game is formula 1, a precession pretty much decided who has the best wind tunnel testing and engine before Race 1 on the calendar. The FIA recognised it was boring and put things in place to level. Apathy is growing evidence by a number of the comments but attendances are rising, so go figure.

The other big issue we have here is a director of a football club is duty bound to act in the interests of that club future for fear of potential prosecution. To countenance the removal and/or change to the status quo of the SPFL and OF's status when they fill your away capacity and its felt they are the key to any TV right deal, well I doubt you'd find many directors at Dundee United or Kilmarnock actively willing to do this.

[HibsFan]

59 minutes ago, Kapowzer said:

As I conveyed I can understand the OF's plight when it comes to competing in Europe but the thing that hasn't sunk into them, their fans or any media I've consumed is how it is exactly the same uphill battle we face domestically.

They get to go and soak up the Spanish sunshine before and after their pumpings.

We trudge through to Glasgow and stare at a pole in winter every few months for ours.

[Dons_1988]

8 minutes ago, HibsFan said:

They get to go and soak up the Spanish sunshine before and after their pumpings.

We trudge through to Glasgow and stare at a pole in winter every few months for ours.

There’s also no jeopardy. 

Celtic collect £30m before a ball is kicked in the CL and then can sit back and enjoy their 6 pumpings. Some of them still like to tell you they didn’t get enough credit for making it into real madrids final third a couple of times in their 8-1 aggregate defeat. 

 

[Kapowzer]

32 minutes ago, HibsFan said:

They get to go and soak up the Spanish sunshine before and after their pumpings.

We trudge through to Glasgow and stare at a pole in winter every few months for ours.

Diamond Dolls or Seventh Heaven?

[flyingscot]

2 hours ago, AndyM said:

Arguably the most pointless soul crushing journey outside of a trip to fucking IKEA with the Mrs.

Harsh on IKEA to be compared to an away trip to Parkhead or Ibrox. 

[Kapowzer]

18 minutes ago, flyingscot said:

Harsh on IKEA to be compared to an away trip to Parkhead or Ibrox. 

I know right, less meatballs at IKEA

[Lyle Lanley]

3 hours ago, AndyM said:

And that's what it's meant to be like. Back in my younger days it was "Win or lose we'll be on the booze".

Assume it would be no different if you followed Hearts or Aberdeen.  I have real admiration for those Hibees going to Parkhead this weekend. Arguably the most pointless soul crushing journey outside of a trip to fucking IKEA with the Mrs.

We’ve not won there since Danny Galbraith’s winner in 2010. 

Only going purely for a few drinks in Glasgow before and after the game. 

[Mark Connolly]

18 minutes ago, Lyle Lanley said:

We’ve not won there since Danny Galbraith’s winner in 2010. 

Only going purely for a few drinks in Glasgow before and after the game. 

Only 13 years?

My heart fucking bleeds

[GeorgiosSamaras]

On 13/03/2023 at 03:52, Kapowzer said:

You get why we're unhappy and your primary solution is to open more of our stadiums seating so you may outnumber us there too and we may get your cast off League Cup once in a blue moon. Your generosity knows no bounds. I suppose we should be ..... grateful?

Your recollection of history is equally cloudy. Your cross town neighbours had a stadium disaster that required a legacy. So they did so in the late 70's which was funded by a fans football pools. After years of mismanagement, Fergus stepped in and facilitated the redevelopment of Parkhead however did it again via the fans buying shares issues (£26m) probably about as much of a burden to the footballing budget as it was 15-20 years before. Would the £9m he put in have been alternatively invested in the team? I doubt it, he was astute and walked away break even at worst. He's up there with Brother Walfrid as intrinsic and important to your club. He was also hounded by more than a minority at his pre-defined exit point which is mind boggling.

To go from an average attendance of 35,000 with 7,000 season tickets before reconstruction to 51,000 after, that reeks of an element of glory hunting and excitement at the new shiney toy. To suggest its purely the Irish diaspora looking for a spiritual home is pushing it a bit. There is a team in Edinburgh who were formed before you who likewise offered a focus, but today buses and buses leave the capital every weekend for Glasgow. That says your club and your neighbours offer something particular that doesn't exist quite the same elsewhere.

As the dominant force with the nailed on guarantee of UEFA money every year it is not surprising you're happy to continue with the procession. Just have to make sure you don't mess up too many of the 4 games you really care about. Not that you need them at present. But we shouldn't park the bus so you win by 5+ every week. I mean is your 12th man support and 18x financial advantage not enough?

The rest of us are just scunnered with you sucking up any talented youth players we get coming through our ranks and all your various levels of pish (victimisation, establishment, refs, glorifying terrorists, sectarianism, bigotry, poppy stuff, and any oppressed peoples politics/causes you wish to align with).

As Scots it's often said when the Tartan Army travels, a big bit of it is being fun and distinguishing themselves to be the polar opposite from the Engerlund fans who send patio furniture skiting across cobbled city centre squares. You need to appreciate and absorb that pretty much everyone else in Scottish football sees you as our beered up English supporters.

I'll respond to this because as far as I can see it's the most comprehensive answer to my post, but trying to answer points raised by others within it.

We’ve played at Fir Park twice this season, both times the Celtic end was full and there was 5000 empty seats in the rest of the stadium. Motherwell could have sold significantly more tickets and received a relative financial windfall, they chose not to. Not claiming it would not bridge the financial gulf between the clubs but it is cutting your nose off to spite your face. 

Rangers success in the 1990s was built on a limitless overdraft from the BoS. It was the only sustained period of dominance they’ve had since the 1950s and it was entirely artificial, spending cash they didn’t have. Fergus could have let Celtic die as Rangers fans let their club die in 2012 but he paid our debts. He could have put our financial security in jeopardy by borrowing money we didn’t have as our rivals did. He didn’t, he set in motion a plan to build sustainable success. 

Despite similar roots Hibs have long taken a different path. Celtic stand alone in terms of embracing their Irish identity. That identity and support is passed down through generations. I would presume most on here support their team because their dad or another family member did too. Idea of saying I live in Blantyre so I should go 3 miles to New Douglas Park instead of 6 miles Celtic Park is nuts. Same principle applies to those who stay in other parts of Scotland or Ireland. People don’t pick their team with a map and a ruler. 

Every team has to sell their prize assets, Celtic are no different to other Scottish teams in that regard. Ange has brought in more than he spent. I’d love to have Tierney, Van Dijk and Dembele in the team but we wouldn’t have the squad we have just now without a conveyer belt of players heading out. 

The buzz around Celtic just now isn’t just because they are winning, it’s the style of football they are playing. I seen an Aberdeen fan respond to me scoffing at the idea of actually trying to play football against us. What chance does Scottish football have when a big team with a European trophy are content with creating 0 chances, having 20% of the ball and sitting 11 men behind the ball at home, and still losing, just because it kept the score down? As others have mentioned, we got pumped by Real Madrid and Leipzig this year.  No excuses about budgets, we lost because we faced better teams. Celtic fans aren’t complaining because we went toe to toe with them and had a go anyway.

[VincentGuerin]

2 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

Here's the rub though, if that happened at the start of next season would we see an improvement in quality or would the likes of RIcki Lamie suddenly go from £2k a week to £5k (which would be mental).

The other issue would be what if the OF leave, then there is a good chance our two way league would develop into a three way one as yourselves, Hibs and Aberdeen all have similar sized home attendances and revenues. Hearts are best placed at present to make hay while the sun is shining and build a warchest and successful team with it due to the guarantee group stages of the Conference League and a chance of Europa.

What would make it interesting that your 20k fans and revenues would maybe only be 4x to 5x more than the middle or the road clubs unlike the 18-20x nonsense we have at present.

We'd certainly see wages leap up for poor players, the English Championship has made a millionaire of more than one utterly average fitba player, for example.

But we'd also in simple terms see clubs able to tell the more utterly shite of their squads to bolt and replace them with better/fend off poachers for their better players more effectively. Clubs in League One and Two in England would be far less of a danger in terms of picking off players from Scottish Premiership clubs, for example.

We've got a big few weeks coming in terms of what happens next with Hearts/Hibs/Aberdeen. If Hearts get third again, we'll be very well-placed to go on and make that ours for a few years. The fact that we're sitting third having played European football this season and had absolutely laughable levels of injuries shows that we're already in a very strong position. How would we be at the moment if we'd had Boyce, Baningime, Halket, Rowles, Gordon, Kingsley, Haring etc available all season rather than having had to patch up the team all year? If we get more European money to add to this squad, we'll be very tough to stop next season. We couldn't really have had it much tougher this year in terms of injuries or schedule, and we're five clear in third. Aberdeen and Hibs are both already behind us despite having had a clear run at this season, and we've scudded them both quite severley despite not being at full strength (or near it) at any point.

You could argue Aberdeen probably need to finish third more than Hearts or Hibs. Their stadium issue is going to need money spent on it, and they already invested heavily in the squad last summer. If they don't make Europe, there's maybe a reckoning to be faced there. Hibs off the pitch seem to be in a stronger position with the stadium finished etc. But the next few weeks may well be very important in deciding what happens over the next few years.

Hearts won't suddenly be scudding teams 6-0 every week, but it's not hard to see how we could go from where we are now to being very hard to compete with over a season for a while. There's no doubt that's a bad thing for the league, especially given we've got two teams nobody can touch.

Edited March 14, 2023 by VincentGuerin

[Monkey Tennis]

7 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

 

I had a pint with a Celtic-supporting mate of mine recently (before we played them at Parkhead) and this came up. He was adamant that Celtic shouldn't have to give up any of their cash to the other teams in the league. Fair enough, but he also complained that most games he goes to on his season ticket are dull. The idea that his experience of watching football might be improved if other teams turned up at Celtic Park with a chance of winning, and if a home game against, say, Dundee United was a genuine big game didn't really register. 

You see, I don't think his experience would be improved by the strong possibility of defeat.  If that was the case, he couldn't possibly buy into the current lopsided nonsense. You and I would get very quickly bored by such 'entertainment',  but I really don't think they do.  I think their relationship with football is very different from ours.

It's just depressing that there are so many of them.

[Monkey Tennis]

18 minutes ago, GeorgiosSamaras said:

Despite similar roots Hibs have long taken a different path. Celtic stand alone in terms of embracing their Irish identity. That identity and support is passed down through generations. I would presume most on here support their team because their dad or another family member did too. Idea of saying I live in Blantyre so I should go 3 miles to New Douglas Park instead of 6 miles Celtic Park is nuts. Same principle applies to those who stay in other parts of Scotland or Ireland. People don’t pick their team with a map and a ruler. 

This always tickles me.  

The idea of Dads passing their support on doesn't begin to explain why the gates of most clubs have diminished since the high point of the early 50s; while those of the OF have risen.

It seems that only support for sides that win all the time is hereditary.

[DukDukGoose]

29 minutes ago, GeorgiosSamaras said:

I'll respond to this because as far as I can see it's the most comprehensive answer to my post, but trying to answer points raised by others within it.

We’ve played at Fir Park twice this season, both times the Celtic end was full and there was 5000 empty seats in the rest of the stadium. Motherwell could have sold significantly more tickets and received a relative financial windfall, they chose not to. Not claiming it would not bridge the financial gulf between the clubs but it is cutting your nose off to spite your face. 

Rangers success in the 1990s was built on a limitless overdraft from the BoS. It was the only sustained period of dominance they’ve had since the 1950s and it was entirely artificial, spending cash they didn’t have. Fergus could have let Celtic die as Rangers fans let their club die in 2012 but he paid our debts. He could have put our financial security in jeopardy by borrowing money we didn’t have as our rivals did. He didn’t, he set in motion a plan to build sustainable success. 

Despite similar roots Hibs have long taken a different path. Celtic stand alone in terms of embracing their Irish identity. That identity and support is passed down through generations. I would presume most on here support their team because their dad or another family member did too. Idea of saying I live in Blantyre so I should go 3 miles to New Douglas Park instead of 6 miles Celtic Park is nuts. Same principle applies to those who stay in other parts of Scotland or Ireland. People don’t pick their team with a map and a ruler. 

Every team has to sell their prize assets, Celtic are no different to other Scottish teams in that regard. Ange has brought in more than he spent. I’d love to have Tierney, Van Dijk and Dembele in the team but we wouldn’t have the squad we have just now without a conveyer belt of players heading out. 

The buzz around Celtic just now isn’t just because they are winning, it’s the style of football they are playing. I seen an Aberdeen fan respond to me scoffing at the idea of actually trying to play football against us. What chance does Scottish football have when a big team with a European trophy are content with creating 0 chances, having 20% of the ball and sitting 11 men behind the ball at home, and still losing, just because it kept the score down? As others have mentioned, we got pumped by Real Madrid and Leipzig this year.  No excuses about budgets, we lost because we faced better teams. Celtic fans aren’t complaining because we went toe to toe with them and had a go anyway.

Hahaha. I bet you smell your own farts.

[RandomGuy.]

26 minutes ago, GeorgiosSamaras said:

As others have mentioned, we got pumped by Real Madrid and Leipzig this year.  No excuses about budgets, we lost because we faced better teams. Celtic fans aren’t complaining because we went toe to toe with them and had a go anyway.

Your aggregate score against Real Madrid and RB Leipzig was 13-2. 

Thats with you having a team full of Internationals on £20k+ a week.

If you cant see why clubs think that type of approach would be stupid when they have played on less than £1k a week then youre a lost cause. I can absolutely guarantee you nobody would be applauding their club getting scudded 5-1 by Celtic because they completed some passses and had a couple of shots. You may not like it but keeping it tight and nabbing a result is more effective over a season.