Otis Blue Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 1 hour ago, DiegoDiego said: You're taking results over a generation. Who won the UEFA Cup in 2002 is hardly relevant to today. Looking at European results also ignores are majority of clubs in those divisions. For those four or so players you picked as examples you could just as easily choose a different four as evidence to the contrary. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you've not really convinced me at all. Well yes, but at least I did try to bring some objectivity/statistics to bear on the subject instead of just stating our various gut feelings on the subject. Given that the Premier League only came into being in 1992 I gave them 8 years to settle out so to speak and then looked at the subsequent 23 years of this century. Statistically, I think the most recent 23 year period is a reasonable sample to look at - shorter periods are more subject to anomalous variations. Of course those are only 4 players I quoted and there are others out there, but they are widely regarded as "top level" current players and they didn't fancy the Premier League when they had other options. If you read my post back you will see that I acknowledged that 2 clubs dominate the Spanish league and also the Champions League in the 23 year period considered. So I then also considered the lesser UEFA Cup/Europa League to see how clubs lower down fared in head-to-head comparison with the Premier League (and the Spanish dominance was even more evident) - so I don't think I was ignoring the other clubs in those leagues. Below the Europa League level clubs we don't really have a real means to measure the other lower clubs in head-to-head situations - there is of course now the Conference League but that's fairly recent and doesn't really give a good sample statistically. As I say, its only one attempt to compare Spanish/English top league performance objectively ... and this comparison leans heavily towards the Spanish clubs out performing English clubs in the top two European club competitions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonam Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 Hearts, the clear 3rd best team getting totally totally thumped by Rangers just shows how bad the Premiership is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Blue Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 2 minutes ago, Sonam said: Hearts, the clear 3rd best team getting totally totally thumped by Rangers just shows how bad the Premiership is. Aye possibly, or alternatively just shows that the OF are operating at a completely (and financially) different level. If this was boxing, the OF wouldn't be allowed to compete at the same "weight" as the other Premiership clubs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 1 hour ago, Sonam said: Hearts, the clear 3rd best team getting totally totally thumped by Rangers just shows how bad the Premiership is. Good teams still lose games heavily in pretty much every league. Hearts have beaten Celtic already this season, and Rangers have lost to the sides in 5th and 8th. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonam Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 1 hour ago, Otis Blue said: Aye possibly, or alternatively just shows that the OF are operating at a completely (and financially) different level. If this was boxing, the OF wouldn't be allowed to compete at the same "weight" as the other Premiership clubs. Exact 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 54 minutes ago, craigkillie said: Good teams still lose games heavily in pretty much every league. An excellent example from League 2 today. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 On 24/02/2024 at 11:15, Otis Blue said: But is it (the EPL) the best? Its not just Mbappe preferring Spain to England, you also have Jude Bellingham (himself English) and Vinicius Jr (arguably three of the best players around just now) making that same choice and you also have Harry Hampden Heartbreaker bloody Kane electing for Germany over his native league. Then this week we see the much vaunted (by the English media) high scoring Arsenal being humbled by a Portuguese side in the CL. Yes the EPL has arguably one of the best sides in mega bucks Man City, but I find them a difficult watch over 90 minutes with their tippy tappy stuff, and my personal view is that Madrid's brand of football is a better watch. Now of course there's a lot of subjectivity in each of our differing views on this, so (unlike me) I thought I'd attempt a bit of objectivity and did a quick review of winners of the Champions League and winners of the UEFA Cup/Europa League since the turn of the century (as this is where the various leagues come head to head and some kind of objective assessment is possible): Champions League wins - Spain 10, England 6, Germany 3, Italy 3, Portugal 1 UEFA Cup/Europa League wins - Spain 12, England 4, Portugal 2, Russia 2, Germany 1, Holland 1, Ukraine 1 It's pretty hard to argue from this that Spain doesn't dominate the rest on this basis. Now it will be argued that Spain is basically just two clubs (Madrid 6 wins and Barca 4 wins) which is true for the Champions League, but when you look at the secondary tournament the 12 Spanish winners are spread across four other clubs in Seville (7 wins), Atletico Madrid (3 wins), Valencia (1 win) and Villareal (1 win). So for me the secondary tournament gives a truer reflection of the overall strength of the Spanish league outwith its big two clubs and here Spain also absolutely dominates the EPL clubs. Personally, I don't buy the propaganda dished out by the English Premier League and the sycophantic English media that its the best league in the world - the EPL is good because of the sheer scale of financial investment across its clubs, but it can be argued as above that it just isn't the best when objectively measured in head to head tournaments. You don't like the Premier League. That's fine. But denying that it is the preeminent league in the world and the most attractive to players, coaches, and owners is just sa bit silly. It obviously is the biggest draw. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Blue Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 3 hours ago, VincentGuerin said: You don't like the Premier League. That's fine. But denying that it is the preeminent league in the world and the most attractive to players, coaches, and owners is just sa bit silly. It obviously is the biggest draw. Aye, we're not quite on the same page. I haven't denied that it's got the most money and understandably that of course draws in a lot of quality (and also some lesser "quality") players and coaches. So yes, of course it is clearly a "big draw", but some quality players/coaches prefer to go elsewhere. All I did was to try to assess the EPL's performance objectively against clubs of other European leagues using competitions where they come into direct contact as a measure - and the stats (surprisingly for me anyway) clearly lie in favour the Spanish league as the top performer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 16 minutes ago, Otis Blue said: All I did was to try to assess the EPL's performance objectively against clubs of other European leagues using competitions where they come into direct contact as a measure - and the stats (surprisingly for me anyway) clearly lie in favour the Spanish league as the top performer. Again, we're taking about which is the best at the moment, so rather than only going by cups won and including teams from decades ago that everyone's retired from, why not go by the actual UEFA league coefficients which favour recent performance, take into account all games played in Europe and is a system all the leagues seems happy to use as an assessment of strength. Spain are fifth as it stands, hardly a performance likely from the best league in the world. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 22 hours ago, DiegoDiego said: An excellent example from League 2 today. And the losers play in maroon, too... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Blue Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 14 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said: Again, we're taking about which is the best at the moment, so rather than only going by cups won and including teams from decades ago that everyone's retired from, why not go by the actual UEFA league coefficients which favour recent performance, take into account all games played in Europe and is a system all the leagues seems happy to use as an assessment of strength. Spain are fifth as it stands, hardly a performance likely from the best league in the world. Yes, that is indeed a demonstrable statistic which clearly is a valid case. I just thought that taking a view across the last 20 years covering most of the period that the EPL has been in existence was a reasonable thing to do and was a better sample rather than just the current snapshot in time. As I said in another post the EPL is the best funded, but the Spanish clubs do like their silverware. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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