topcat(The most tip top) Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 12 hours ago, AJF said: I think what @willywastecoat forgets to mention, or deliberately overlooks, is that Celtic found themselves in the exact same scenario the season prior (2 home games v top 6 sides pre-split). It has always been this way, really, due to the way they schedule derby games with it alternating each year. And as you allude to, last season's top 6 means nothing this season if there are other teams now performing better than them that we will need to face away from home post-split. Also Home Field Advantage isn't always that big a deal and it varies from club to club At time of writing Hearts have 2 more points from 13 away games than 13 home games Celtic and Hibs have 1 more point from 13 away games than 13 home games Rangers only have 1 more point from 13 home games than 13 away games Kilmarnock on the other hand have the 3rd best Home Record in the country but the 8th best form on the road. They average one more point per game at Rugby park at St Johnstone it's 0.63 more points per game at home at St Mirren it's 0.54 It's teams that end up only travelling to Paisley, Kilmarnock or Perth once that should consider themselves lucky Edited February 22 by topcat(The most tip top) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 43 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: Kilmarnock on the other hand have the 3rd best Home Record in the country but the 8th best form on the road. They average one more point per game at Rugby park at St Johnstone it's 0.63 more points per game at home at St Mirren it's 0.54 It's teams that end up only travelling to Paisley, Kilmarnock or Perth once that should consider themselves lucky. Of course, champions-elect Hearts have already won twice at Perth and in the league and cup at Killie, further emphasising that we've outgrown this league. St Mirren caught us in a weak moment, but they will get what's coming to them. Edited February 22 by VincentGuerin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Blue Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 20 hours ago, VincentGuerin said: I think you've misunderstood his post. It's completely unarguable that in a general sense the Premier League is 'the place to be' for players, coaches, journalists, analysts, basically anyone connected to the game professionally. If they're not working in the Premier League, they probably wish they were. Same goes for owners. Not quite sure that Kylian Mbappe would agree with your post there tbf. In choosing La Liga for his future home, I don't think Mr Mbappe was quite convinced of the glitz and glamour of being on the wrong end of some tasty tackles on a freezing cold wet January mid-week night in Burnley, Luton, Sheffield, Wolverhampton, Nottingham etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Blue Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Lots of views being expressed here about the size of our leagues, but what do we see as the worst aspect of our current leagues? For me its the lack of real "competition". We all know that financial power alone ensures that one of the ugly sisters will always win the league. Personally, I've had my complete fill of the ten team mini leagues but that pales in comparison with the overall lack of competition. Plenty examples on here of fans of our Premiership clubs not wanting to have to bother playing the diddies and so are happy with the status quo - and after all that's why the Premiership was created with its biased voting structure - an exclusive members only club to keep the diddies down in their place, so it's not surprising that their fans are OK with it. Unsurprisingly, views alter depending on your perspective. Give me a competitive league without the over-entitled uglies and clubs such as Hearts, Hibs and the Dons would be vying for the title most seasons and others such as the Dundee clubs, Kilmarnock, Motherwell etc would have a realistic shot at it too. What we have now is boring as feck with 40 of the 42 clubs merely playing for crumbs left over. Financial and business drivers will ensure that the European Leagues inevitably happen and the uglies will then depart (although obviously not for the top tier initially) for the dosh and glamour, although it won't be in my time now. When the ELs come to pass we can decide how best to structure our leagues, although four games a season against only nine other sides wouldn't exactly float my boat ... not that long ago my team had to play Dundee seven bloody times in one season across league and cup games (and I'm sure the Dens fans were of the same view, probably more so) ... variety being the spice of life, aye? When the OF go there will clearly be less money in our national leagues, but so what? We cut our cloth accordingly. Will Tynecastle and Pittodrie suddenly become less than half full because there are no OF games any more? When the time comes and the EL cash carrot is dangled within reach, the uglies won't give the remaining 40 clubs a single backward glance in the mirror, that's for sure. We are only something that they currently tolerate and purely because they have no alternative. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 40 minutes ago, Otis Blue said: Not quite sure that Kylian Mbappe would agree with your post there tbf. In choosing La Liga for his future home, I don't think Mr Mbappe was quite convinced of the glitz and glamour of being on the wrong end of some tasty tackles on a freezing cold wet January mid-week night in Burnley, Luton, Sheffield, Wolverhampton, Nottingham etc. Real Madrid are quite clearly aspecial case. If you're arguing La Liga has the pulling power of the Premier League overall, you're simply and obviously wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Blue Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Just now, VincentGuerin said: Real Madrid are quite clearly aspecial case. If you're arguing La Liga has the pulling power of the Premier League overall, you're simply and obviously wrong. Yes, Madrid are clearly an outstanding club. However, in making his decision I'm sure that Mbappe was looking at more than just his pay cheque at the Bernabeu. I watch a lot of games (including La Liga) and I've seen some dreadful stuff in the Premier League. Sure the English media like to tell us its the best league in the world (it probably has the most money) but they would naturally pedal that particular tale. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dons_1988 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Just now, Otis Blue said: Yes, Madrid are clearly an outstanding club. However, in making his decision I'm sure that Mbappe was looking at more than just his pay cheque at the Bernabeu. I watch a lot of games (including La Liga) and I've seen some dreadful stuff in the Premier League. Sure the English media like to tell us its the best league in the world (it probably has the most money) but they would naturally pedal that particular tale. The existence of shite games doesn’t disprove the point though. Point to any league on the planet that doesn’t contain run of the mill fixtures that only really interest the fans of the respective clubs. It’s absolutely true to say that professionally englands top flight is where guys want to be. It’s just unfortunately where we are just now. La liga’s stock has dropped quite significantly in the last few years. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Just now, Otis Blue said: Yes, Madrid are clearly an outstanding club. However, in making his decision I'm sure that Mbappe was looking at more than just his pay cheque at the Bernabeu. I watch a lot of games (including La Liga) and I've seen some dreadful stuff in the Premier League. Sure the English media like to tell us its the best league in the world (it probably has the most money) but they would naturally pedal that particular tale. I'm not really sure where people are going with this point. I understand that Sky are c***s and the coverage of English football an be nauseating. But it is the league with the outstanding players (generally speaking), the best collection of coaches, and by quite some distance the greatest depth of quality. I don't know why people try to pretend this isn't the case. The reasons it has got to that stage are unpleasant, and there's a lot to object to ethically. But you can argue that equally about Real Madrid and Barcelona. The Premier League is very obviously the most attractive league in the world to football professionals. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Plenty of players turn down the EPL to stay abroad. Its a league filled with players who simply went for the biggest wage. Its both where players/managers want to be, but also less attractive in a lot of other ways to other leagues. Personally i think the Bundesliga seems the most attractive due to the overall atmosphere and size of clubs there, but they lag behind financially across the board. Interesting to read Derek Rae say that fans are happy with that though. Theyd rather have an enjoyable, lower quality, league, than a virtually dead plastic league. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willywastecoat Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 On 22/02/2024 at 08:46, AJF said: I think what @willywastecoat forgets to mention, or deliberately overlooks, is that Celtic found themselves in the exact same scenario the season prior (2 home games v top 6 sides pre-split). It has always been this way, really, due to the way they schedule derby games with it alternating each year. And as you allude to, last season's top 6 means nothing this season if there are other teams now performing better than them that we will need to face away from home post-split. Massive fail M8, my point wasn't a Celtic and sevco thing it was more to do with the other teams in the league. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paisley Ton Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 55 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: Personally i think the Bundesliga seems the most attractive due to the overall atmosphere and size of clubs there, but they lag behind financially across the board. Interesting to read Derek Rae say that fans are happy with that though. Theyd rather have an enjoyable, lower quality, league, than a virtually dead plastic league. While I agree its the place to go for great atmosphere it is not that competitive. Seemingly this might be the first year that league title has changed hands in 14 years, and that down to signing a great striker who wins f**k all and is a hoodoo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1 minute ago, Paisley Ton said: While I agree its the place to go for great atmosphere it is not that competitive. Seemingly this might be the first year that league title has changed hands in 14 years, and that down to signing a great striker who wins f**k all and is a hoodoo. It is below Bayern, and by all accounts the fans at other clubs are haply just going to games and having a great time rather than caring about how far behind Bayern they are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said: Plenty of players turn down the EPL to stay abroad. Its a league filled with players who simply went for the biggest wage. Its both where players/managers want to be, but also less attractive in a lot of other ways to other leagues. Personally i think the Bundesliga seems the most attractive due to the overall atmosphere and size of clubs there, but they lag behind financially across the board. Interesting to read Derek Rae say that fans are happy with that though. Theyd rather have an enjoyable, lower quality, league, than a virtually dead plastic league. Totally agree. I find myself regularly watching the Bundesliga highlights show with envy. On the whole, nice modern stadiums (obviously due to the investment for the 06 World Cup), excellent fan culture and fan ownership, being able to enjoy a beer and some good food in the stands and while it may be lower quality than the EPL, it is exciting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 42 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: Plenty of players turn down the EPL to stay abroad. Its a league filled with players who simply went for the biggest wage. Its both where players/managers want to be, but also less attractive in a lot of other ways to other leagues. Personally i think the Bundesliga seems the most attractive due to the overall atmosphere and size of clubs there, but they lag behind financially across the board. Interesting to read Derek Rae say that fans are happy with that though. Theyd rather have an enjoyable, lower quality, league, than a virtually dead plastic league. The German top flight is doing well In terms of appealing to fans despite lagging behind equivalent leagues in terms of on field star power. But that's nothing compared to second division .There are eight clubs in who are pulling bigger crowds than current Bundesliga 1 leader Bayer Leverkuesen Schalke are pulling in 60,000 + to watch a team that's struggling losing more games than it wins 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Just now, topcat(The most tip top) said: The German top flight is doing well In terms of appealing to fans despite lagging behind equivalent leagues in terms of on field star power. But that's nothing compared to second division .There are eight clubs in who are pulling bigger crowds than current Bundesliga 1 leader Bayer Leverkuesen Schalke are pulling in 60,000 + to watch a team that's struggling losing more games than it wins Aye sure i read that the second tier overall crowd was higher than the top tier last weekend? Fan culture over there is unreal, and apparently they find the attempts at it over here pretty funny. "Ultra" groups who do absolutely nothing about prices etc., apart from put the odd sign up every so often, while over there you coordinated campaigns by every fanbase in the country at the same time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Blue Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 19 hours ago, VincentGuerin said: ...But it is the league with the outstanding players (generally speaking), the best collection of coaches, and by quite some distance the greatest depth of quality. ...The Premier League is very obviously the most attractive league in the world to football professionals. But is it (the EPL) the best? Its not just Mbappe preferring Spain to England, you also have Jude Bellingham (himself English) and Vinicius Jr (arguably three of the best players around just now) making that same choice and you also have Harry Hampden Heartbreaker bloody Kane electing for Germany over his native league. Then this week we see the much vaunted (by the English media) high scoring Arsenal being humbled by a Portuguese side in the CL. Yes the EPL has arguably one of the best sides in mega bucks Man City, but I find them a difficult watch over 90 minutes with their tippy tappy stuff, and my personal view is that Madrid's brand of football is a better watch. Now of course there's a lot of subjectivity in each of our differing views on this, so (unlike me) I thought I'd attempt a bit of objectivity and did a quick review of winners of the Champions League and winners of the UEFA Cup/Europa League since the turn of the century (as this is where the various leagues come head to head and some kind of objective assessment is possible): Champions League wins - Spain 10, England 6, Germany 3, Italy 3, Portugal 1 UEFA Cup/Europa League wins - Spain 12, England 4, Portugal 2, Russia 2, Germany 1, Holland 1, Ukraine 1 It's pretty hard to argue from this that Spain doesn't dominate the rest on this basis. Now it will be argued that Spain is basically just two clubs (Madrid 6 wins and Barca 4 wins) which is true for the Champions League, but when you look at the secondary tournament the 12 Spanish winners are spread across four other clubs in Seville (7 wins), Atletico Madrid (3 wins), Valencia (1 win) and Villareal (1 win). So for me the secondary tournament gives a truer reflection of the overall strength of the Spanish league outwith its big two clubs and here Spain also absolutely dominates the EPL clubs. Personally, I don't buy the propaganda dished out by the English Premier League and the sycophantic English media that its the best league in the world - the EPL is good because of the sheer scale of financial investment across its clubs, but it can be argued as above that it just isn't the best when objectively measured in head to head tournaments. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 On 21/02/2024 at 14:29, Kev said: Fair enough point if you're basing it on your form over this whole season but my exact words were "Hearts current form could see them up there". My point, which I maybe didn't put forward particularly well, wasn't that for non OF teams would get an more an advantage playing Ayr or Morton twice a season than OF teams. It was that non OF teams could, potentially only drop say 2, 3 or 4 points (maximum of 6 rather than 12) against the one of OF by only playing them twice, especially if one of them are in bad form and you actually had a go at them. You're far less likely to drop as many points to Morton and Ayr twice than Rangers and Celtic 4 times. Let me get this right, you would rather play the OF 8 times a season, likely losing all of them in a normal situation, rather than playing against smaller teams who you would likely beat instead? Yes I know that also means 4 games against Hibs, which is exciting for you guys, but no one else outside your fan base gives a shit. With the exception of maybe Aberdeen, I wouldn't class any of your other fixtures as "big". If you are losing 8 times to the Old Firm in a season then you're not going to be good enough to win a league whether it has 12 teams, 16 teams or 20 teams. The best non-Old Firm teams of the recent years (McInnes' Aberdeen, Clarke's Killie and the current Hearts team) have all taken points off of the Old Firm on a fairly consistent basis. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennie makevin Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 19 hours ago, AJF said: Totally agree. I find myself regularly watching the Bundesliga highlights show with envy. On the whole, nice modern stadiums (obviously due to the investment for the 06 World Cup), excellent fan culture and fan ownership, being able to enjoy a beer and some good food in the stands and while it may be lower quality than the EPL, it is exciting. And to be clear, do they play each other four times a season. ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 28 minutes ago, kennie makevin said: And to be clear, do they play each other four times a season. ? No, because a country the wizeof Germany is able to support more than ~20 full time clubs, so can afford to have larger divisions. Its fairly uncommon for any part time side in Scotland to breach the top 16/18, which is why Arbroaths play off stint a few years back was such a big thing, so quite why people dont realise how stale a bigger top flight would soon get is beyond. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 3 hours ago, Otis Blue said: but it can be argued as above that it just isn't the best when objectively measured in head to head tournaments. You're taking results over a generation. Who won the UEFA Cup in 2002 is hardly relevant to today. Looking at European results also ignores are majority of clubs in those divisions. For those four or so players you picked as examples you could just as easily choose a different four as evidence to the contrary. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you've not really convinced me at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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