The Very Meh Humza Yousaf Thread.

[MacDonald Jardine]

2 hours ago, lichtgilphead said:

My argument is that power devolved is power retained. 

As long as Scotland remains part of the UK, Westminster can do whatever it likes. Just because Westminster hasn't abolished the Scottish Parliament doesn't mean that it cannot do so.

As such, your initial statement that it is impossible for Westminster to right these wrongs is demonstrable nonsense, irrespective of the current willingness of the Scottish Government to work jointly toward a UK-wide solution.

Do you really think that Westminster would stand back and say "It's a Scottish Govt responsibility" if compensation in Scotland was set at a far greater rate than down South?

Yes.

How would that differ from no tuition fees, no prescription charges or baby boxes?

You're right: the Westminster government could repeal the Scotland Act if they chose.

In theory.

How likely do you think that is?

[lichtgilphead]

35 minutes ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

You're right as far as it goes, but the Crown Office retains overall responsibility for the prosecution.

If there are legitimate doubts about the solidity of the case,  and it sounds like there were it's in their gift to stop the prosecution.

They didn't.

Agreed. However, the prosecutor has to take it on trust that the prosecution witnesses aren't lying and have made reference to any potential deficiencies in the prosecution, either in the 'Notes for guidance of the Procurator Fiscal' or in the disclosure schedules. If the Post Office invesrigator's statements had contained this information, I highly doubt that the case would have been marked for prosecution.

https://www.copfs.gov.uk/publications/reports-to-copfs-a-guide-for-specialist-reporting-agencies/html/

3.12 Summary of facts and evidence

This should summarise the relevant facts that constitute the offences and specify the evidence which proves them. All relevant evidence must be disclosed whether favourable to the Crown or the defence. There must be no wilful suppression of relevant evidence.

4.5 Detrimental evidence
Finally it is important that material which may be detrimental to the prospect of a conviction is not omitted from the statement. In order to perform his or her function properly the Procurator Fiscal must be aware of all the evidence which has been gathered regardless of whether it contributes to the evidence against an accused person or is in his or her favour.

32 minutes ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

You're right: the Westminster government could repeal the Scotland Act if they chose.

In theory.

How likely do you think that is?

I agree that it's not likely, but it's possible.

My point was that @Left Back's assertion that it was impossible for Westminster to do anything regarding convictions in Scotland was absolute nonsense, as I'm sure you must agree.

Edited January 12 by lichtgilphead
Typos

[MacDonald Jardine]

14 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Agreed. However, the prosecutor has to take it on trust that the prosecution witnesses aren't lying and have made reference to any potential deficiencies in the prosecution, either in the 'Notes for guidance of the Procurator Fiscal' or in the disclosure schedules. If the Post Office invesrigator's statements had contained this information, I highly doubt that the case would have been marked for prosecution.

https://www.copfs.gov.uk/publications/reports-to-copfs-a-guide-for-specialist-reporting-agencies/html/

3.12 Summary of facts and evidence

This should summarise the relevant facts that constitute the offences and specify the evidence which proves them. All relevant evidence must be disclosed whether favourable to the Crown or the defence. There must be no wilful suppression of relevant evidence.

4.5 Detrimental evidence
Finally it is important that material which may be detrimental to the prospect of a conviction is not omitted from the statement. In order to perform his or her function properly the Procurator Fiscal must be aware of all the evidence which has been gathered regardless of whether it contributes to the evidence against an accused person or is in his or her favour.

I agree that it's not likely, but it's possible.

My point was that @Left Back's assertion that it was impossible for Westminster to do anything regarding convictions in Scotland was absolute nonsense, as I'm sure you must agree.

Not impossible no.

Highly unlikely almost to the point of it though.

 

[lichtgilphead]

7 minutes ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

Not impossible no.

Highly unlikely almost to the point of it though.

 

Are you suggesting that the UK government is "highly unlikely almost to the point of impossibliity" to arrange a nationwide pardon & compensation scheme, either with or without Scottish Government participation?

Edited January 12 by lichtgilphead

[MacDonald Jardine]

1 hour ago, lichtgilphead said:

Are you suggesting that the UK government is "highly unlikely almost to the point of impossibliity" to arrange a nationwide pardon & compensation scheme, either with or without Scottish Government participation?

Yes, on the basis it's a devolved matter.

[lichtgilphead]

11 minutes ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

Yes, on the basis it's a devolved matter.

Yeah, the UK Government never, ever interferes in devolved matters

Oh, wait a minute...

https://www.gov.scot/publications/devolution-since-the-brexit-referendum/pages/effects-of-uk-government-actions-since-the-brexit-referendum/#:~:text=The UK Government has few,consent of the Scottish Parliament.

The devolution settlement provided for governmental functions and funding in devolved areas to transfer to the Scottish Government, which is accountable to the Scottish Parliament for these executive functions.  The UK Government has few residual functions, and no general oversight role, for devolved policy 

Despite this clear allocation of responsibilities in the Scotland Act, the UK Government is increasingly taking a role in devolved policy making and funding without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.

The UK Government’s “levelling up missions” set targets for the whole UK for devolved matters such as education, health and policing.  These targets were set without the agreement of the Scottish Government or Parliament.  In the Levelling Up and Regeneration Bill, the UK Government is now legislating at Westminster for a UK Minister to report annually to Westminster on the delivery of these targets with no role for the Scottish Government or Parliament.  Under the devolution settlement, these are not matters for the UK Government.  It is for the Scottish Government – accountable to the democratically elected Scottish Parliament – to decide policies, priorities, targets, and resources for these devolved matters. 

The UK Internal Market Act also gave UK Ministers new powers to take decisions on public spending for devolved services in Scotland, bypassing the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament.  To fund spending under these new powers, UK Ministers have retained money that would usually be allocated to the Scottish Parliament through normal funding arrangements (known as the Barnett formula).

[DeeTillEhDeh]

If evidence is fabricated the blame doesn't lie with the CPS or COOFS but with those who fabricated the evidence in the first place.

There's a long history of miscarriages of justice where the blame did not lie with the prosecution services but with those providing the evidence - for example,  the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad caused at least 40 miscarriages of justice including the Birmingham 6, by falsifying evidence, suppressing evidence etc.

In this case the blame lies firmly and squarely with the Post Office and Fujitsu.

Edited January 13 by DeeTillEhDeh

[vikingTON]

40 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

If evidence is fabricated the blame doesn't lie with the CPS or COOFS but with those who fabricated the evidence in the first place.

There's a long history of miscarriages of justice where the blame did not lie with the prosecution services but with those providing the evidence - for example,  the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad caused at least 40 miscarriages of justice including the Birmingham 6, by falsifying evidence, suppressing evidence etc.

In this case the blame lies firmly and squarely with the Post Office and Fujitsu.

Well no, because it's the job of CPS or COOFS to scruticise the credibility of the evidence that they are using - rather than just lolloping on and causing miscarriages of justice to occur. 

Evidence of a Post Office/Fujitsu cover up has not just emerged with this public enquiry. It also didn't just emerge from a TV dramatisation. The evidence for this has been getting reported and built up layer by layer for a decade, if not more, by quality investigative journalism. 

If your sources of evidence are increasingly shown to be as dodgy as a £6 note then you should put a hold on all prosecutions based on those sources, when people's livelihoods are at stake. Partial blame therefore lies with prosecution bodies and more substantial blame with the two fabricators. 

Edited January 13 by vikingTON

[DeeTillEhDeh]

2 hours ago, virginton said:

Well no, because it's the job of CPS or COOFS to scruticise the credibility of the evidence that they are using - rather than just lolloping on and causing miscarriages of justice to occur. 

Evidence of a Post Office/Fujitsu cover up has not just emerged with this public enquiry. It also didn't just emerge from a TV dramatisation. The evidence for this has been getting reported and built up layer by layer for a decade, if not more, by quality investigative journalism. 

If your sources of evidence are increasingly shown to be as dodgy as a £6 note then you should put a hold on all prosecutions based on those sources, when people's livelihoods are at stake. Partial blame therefore lies with prosecution bodies and more substantial blame with the two fabricators. 

Sorry if I did not make myself clear -  should have linked to the initial quote about Ross and Sarwar trying to wholly blame the Crown Office when clearly it's a lot more complicated than that.

Certainly the initial prosecutions in the first decade or so of Horizon lie entirely with the PO/Fujitsu.

 

Edited January 13 by DeeTillEhDeh

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Sorry if I did not make myself clear -  should have linked to the initial quote about Ross and Sarwar trying to wholly blame the Crown Office when clearly it's a lot more complicated than that.

Certainly the initial prosecutions in the first decade or so of Horizon lie entirely with the PO/Fujitsu.

 

Not the cases in Scotland though, if the PO did not have the same legal power to prosecute. It's really not an either/or choice but rather allocation of blame all round, and if it weren't for Holyrood politics being involved then everyone would recognise that instead of wildly deflecting about the devolution settlement (and Yousaf Must Explain too).

[DeeTillEhDeh]

2 hours ago, virginton said:

Not the cases in Scotland though, if the PO did not have the same legal power to prosecute. It's really not an either/or choice but rather allocation of blame all round, and if it weren't for Holyrood politics being involved then everyone would recognise that instead of wildly deflecting about the devolution settlement (and Yousaf Must Explain too).

I assume in Scotland the PO would have contacted the relevant regional Police at the time and any investigation would have been based primarily on the evidence supplied by the PO/Fujitsu.

I don't disagree that there is blame all round after it became clear there was an issue with the evidence but it seems that some are using it quite cynically to deflect from the blame in rUK.

Edited January 13 by DeeTillEhDeh

[lichtgilphead]

1 hour ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

I assume in Scotland the PO would have contacted the relevant regional Police at the time and any investigation would have been based primarily on the evidence supplied by the PO/Fujitsu.

I don't disagree that there is blame all round after it became clear there was an issue with the evidence but it seems that some are using it quite cynically to deflect from the blame in rUK.

Nothing at all to do with the police. Specialist non-police reporting agencies report directly to the Fiscal. The introduction to the 2006 guidance hasn't been updated since the formation of Police Scotland, but states:

Procurators Fiscal receive reports from the eight Scottish police forces and British Transport Police, Ministry of Defence Police and the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Constabulary, as well as over fifty specialist reporting agencies.

The Post Office investigators will be authorised under various common informer statutes, and will will report directly to the PF through SRAWEB.

Agree with the rest of your post.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

13 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Nothing at all to do with the police. Specialist non-police reporting agencies report directly to the Fiscal. The introduction to the 2006 guidance hasn't been updated since the formation of Police Scotland, but states:

Procurators Fiscal receive reports from the eight Scottish police forces and British Transport Police, Ministry of Defence Police and the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Constabulary, as well as over fifty specialist reporting agencies.

The Post Office investigators will be authorised under various common informer statutes, and will will report directly to the PF through SRAWEB.

Agree with the rest of your post.

Thanks for the clarification.

I assume the PF would trust any evidence supplied would be accurate and that evidence had not been suppressed? What they would be looking to see is if there was sufficient evidence to proceed with a prosecution?

Edited January 13 by DeeTillEhDeh

[lichtgilphead]

19 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Thanks for the clarification.

I assume the PF would trust any evidence supplied would be accurate and that evidence had not been suppressed? What they would be looking to see is if there was sufficient evidence to proceed with a prosecution?

As I pointed out above, the guidance asks that all evidence (whether it helps the prosecution or defence) is given to the Fiscal. In my opinion, the Post Office investigators are to blame, not the Crown Office (and especially not the Scottish Government)

[ICTChris]

Humza Yusuf’s brother in law has been arrested in Dundee for drug offences, along with two other people, a man and a woman. No details about the nature of the charges or anything like that yet. The three will appear in court tomorrow. Reports say they were traced after a break-in at a property in Dundee.

 

[Billy Jean King]

43 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Humza Yusuf’s brother in law has been arrested in Dundee for drug offences, along with two other people, a man and a woman. No details about the nature of the charges or anything like that yet. The three will appear in court tomorrow. Reports say they were traced after a break-in at a property in Dundee.

 

Sounds like all this has been happening while the accused wife (FM Sister) has been doing interviews on the media circuit this week. All pretty bizarre stuff.

[AyrExile]

Cocaine - white!

Ecto - white! 

Surely the post traumatic stress of the Gaza war will get him off the hook. Can’t be long before we are reminded on the Westminster mp’s with wrong uns in the family 

Edited January 14 by AyrExile

[SandyCromarty]

On 13/01/2024 at 00:26, lichtgilphead said:

Yeah, the UK Government never, ever interferes in devolved matters

 

The Tory Party have been against a Devolved Scotland ever since it was first mooted as 'Home Rule' way back.

The Tory Party is the home of the little englander who still sees england as a major power in the world and is angry when they see that their great overwhelming power could be diluted by a Scotland that makes it's own decisions and that the hateful film Braveheart is to blame for all of this continuing devolved nonsense.

They are aided in their spiteful anti Scots rhetoric by the tory press who run out nasty Scots articles on a daily basis.

There has also been a massive infiltration of the narrow minded little englanders into Edinburgh no doubt fleeing from those awful boat people who seek to undermine the correct english way of life, meanwhile conveniently forgetting how the english colonists financially pillaged and bombed countries worldwide. 

[ICTChris]

54 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

Sounds like all this has been happening while the accused wife (FM Sister) has been doing interviews on the media circuit this week. All pretty bizarre stuff.

She didn’t know her brother was about to be arrested, surely?

Like everyone else I have no idea about the details but I assume it will be a banal slice of human misery. Have to assume given the ongoing drug crisis that lots of families will be in similar situations. 

[Wee Bully]

1 hour ago, AyrExile said:

Cocaine - white!

Ecto - white! 

Surely the post traumatic stress of the Gaza war will get him off the hook. Can’t be long before we are reminded on the Westminster mp’s with wrong uns in the family 

It’s surely a bit early on a Sunday to be this pished