No to B teams

[RateofKnots]

11 minutes ago, Shannon said:

I would love to see an 18 team League Two and 18 team Lowland League with 2 up and 2 down and play off with 3rd bottom v winners of 2nd HL / 2nd LL. Would open up the leagues a lot but I can't see it ever being voted through. Would give the current SPFL League Two teams some breathing space as majority should finish at least 15th out of 18 teams as standard now at Highland League / Lowland League isn't as strong now with money clubs now in SPFL apart from perhaps East Kilbride and ones in West of Scotland League.

I think that potentially expanding the SPFL is the most sensible way forward.

Either 16 or 18 teams in the bottom league would provide some security for existing league 2 sides, especially since it would mean 1 year of no relegation! Inviting the top 3/4 finishers in the two tier 5 sides to join would also bring fresh teams in.

Then, 1 automatic relegation slot doesn't sound too bad, coupled with a playoff slot.

[Shannon]

21 minutes ago, RateofKnots said:

I think that potentially expanding the SPFL is the most sensible way forward.

Either 16 or 18 teams in the bottom league would provide some security for existing league 2 sides, especially since it would mean 1 year of no relegation! Inviting the top 3/4 finishers in the two tier 5 sides to join would also bring fresh teams in.

Then, 1 automatic relegation slot doesn't sound too bad, coupled with a playoff slot.

Yeah the 1 year of no relegation would perhaps be enough for SPFL Two clubs to vote for it plus if they do go down then easier to come back up as with current structure the relegated Lowland based teams will struggle to come back up.

[Jan Vojáček]

1 hour ago, RateofKnots said:

I think that potentially expanding the SPFL is the most sensible way forward.

Either 16 or 18 teams in the bottom league would provide some security for existing league 2 sides, especially since it would mean 1 year of no relegation! Inviting the top 3/4 finishers in the two tier 5 sides to join would also bring fresh teams in.

Then, 1 automatic relegation slot doesn't sound too bad, coupled with a playoff slot.

I understand that 16/18 team leagues give you more variety of opponent and it's quite a popular idea. But they would be dull as anything imo. Especially if here was only one team going down and one playoff spot. You'd have a lot of clubs with absolutely nothing to play for; and nothing turns fans off more than having nothing to play for.

Over the last decade ago Sons have almost always had a chance of a promotion battle or been in a relegation fight. And I'd far rather that than consistently finishing 8th-12th in an 18 team division. For example.

[FairWeatherFan]

22 minutes ago, Jan Vojáček said:

I understand that 16/18 team leagues give you more variety of opponent and it's quite a popular idea. But they would be dull as anything imo. Especially if here was only one team going down and one playoff spot. You'd have a lot of clubs with absolutely nothing to play for; and nothing turns fans off more than having nothing to play for.

Over the last decade ago Sons have almost always had a chance of a promotion battle or been in a relegation fight. And I'd far rather that than consistently finishing 8th-12th in an 18 team division. For example.

Since most people aren't psychic when do you think the nothing to play for/meaningless games kick in? 

[Jan Vojáček]

Just now, FairWeatherFan said:

Since most people aren't psychic when do you think the nothing to play for/meaningless games kick in? 

Well you never really know. But if the league looked like this then I think there are a fair few teams who won't be good enough to threaten the top four, but will be well clear of relegation danger. It's very early in the summer, but if we base on business so far and last year's squad. I think Bonnyrigg, Stranraer, Albion Rovers and Elgin to name four would have very little to play for. Maybe even Clyde if they don't get their act together after their shambles last year.

By the turn of the year there would 100% be clubs with nothing much to play for in this league.

Bonnyrigg
Clyde
Dumbarton
East Fife
Elgin
Forfar Athletic
Peterhead
Stenhousemuir
Spartans
Stranraer
Albion Rovers
Stirling Uni
Tranent
Brechin City
Buckie Thistle
Brora Rangers

Last season we had a situation where almost every team had something to play for up until the final weeks of the season. Arguably with the exception of Sons (who had secured second in about March). Stranraer were still in relegation danger until they brought in Scott Agnew. Forfar and Stenny still had vague playoff hopes as we moved into the final four games (I'm sure).

I know there's quite a clamour for a bigger league. And I get it. Hell I saw us play Annan Athletic six times last season. That's pretty ridiculous. But it's being in a battle for either promotion or to avoid the drop that keeps us hooked. Look at the final day of the Championship last year. What a buzz that was.

[1320Lichtie]

Agree with everything Jan Vojacek says

 

The leagues are fine. Leave them alone. People are only arsed about their own team anyway, who is really bothered whether they’ve got 4 games against Morton a season or 2 against Morton and 2 against QOTS or whatever (swap teams to suit as applicable).
 

Who really cares, it’s weird. I look forward to watching Arbroath every Saturday - who they’re playing does not bother me in the slightest and the main reason I enjoy watching football and the outcomes of football matches is due to having something meaningful on the line. Nothing games after 2/3rds of a season would be fkn awful

[The Moonster]

The only thing I think I'd change is to put 9th down automatically. I don't really like giving teams that have been shit all season a second chance at it. Give 2nd a bye to the play off final to put a bit more weight on finishing there. I'd have that for every division too.

[untitled00]

Whether you want larger leagues is really down to personal preference and very little else (there are plenty of leagues that cope fine with larger leagues and arguably the current setup works well for us with smaller leagues. The whole argument about meaningless games seems ironically somewhat meaningless.)

Personally I would prefer both LL/HL champions being promoted directly and that is unlikely to happen in the current 10 team league setup. 
 

Although rather than expand League 2, I’d argue it would be better to just combine Leagues 1 & 2 into some sort of ‘Super Seaside League’ - keep promotion/playoffs the same, 2 automatic relegation slots, playoff for 18th against the winner of 2nd v 2nd and job done. 

[RateofKnots]

2 hours ago, Jan Vojáček said:

I understand that 16/18 team leagues give you more variety of opponent and it's quite a popular idea. But they would be dull as anything imo. Especially if here was only one team going down and one playoff spot. You'd have a lot of clubs with absolutely nothing to play for; and nothing turns fans off more than having nothing to play for.

Over the last decade ago Sons have almost always had a chance of a promotion battle or been in a relegation fight. And I'd far rather that than consistently finishing 8th-12th in an 18 team division. For example.

Listen, I wasn't advocating for it. I merely suggested it would be the most palatable of many terrible ideas.

I like the ultra competitive nature of the ten team Leagues, as well and 4 games against everyone.

I just suspect the powers that be will meddle more.

[RateofKnots]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Since most people aren't psychic when do you think the nothing to play for/meaningless games kick in? 

I suppose it would depend on how you define nothing to play for. 

There would always be prize money, but I doubt that means much to players etc. 

Say you have an 18 team League. 1 automatic promotion spot, 3 play off spots going up. 1 automatic relegation spot, 1 play off spot going down.

That's 6 teams.

It's not wild to suggest there would likely be, say, 6 teams with little to play for come March.

[RateofKnots]

1 hour ago, The Moonster said:

The only thing I think I'd change is to put 9th down automatically. I don't really like giving teams that have been shit all season a second chance at it. Give 2nd a bye to the play off final to put a bit more weight on finishing there. I'd have that for every division too.

The turkeys don't want to vote for Christmas day, never mind thanksgiving.

[Beachcomber]

4 hours ago, Shannon said:

I would love to see an 18 team League Two and 18 team Lowland League with 2 up and 2 down and play off with 3rd bottom v winners of 2nd HL / 2nd LL. Would open up the leagues a lot but I can't see it ever being voted through. Would give the current SPFL League Two teams some breathing space as majority should finish at least 15th out of 18 teams as standard now at Highland League / Lowland League isn't as strong now with money clubs now in SPFL apart from perhaps East Kilbride and ones in West of Scotland League.

I think this is a much better proposition than the 10 team League.  We played Stenhousemuir 5 times last season, becomes so stale playing same teams so often.

[mick90]

The minimum change I would need to see is Leagues 1 and 2 amalgamated (18 teams) with two going up to Championship of 12 teams. Then West of Scotland (almost half the population and more teams than any other region) should get equal rights with Lowland-East and Highland .. in a proper competitive pyramid at level 4. Scotland currently has the worst access to competition in Europe .. no wonder we are going nowhere. Top 12 teams could put `reserve` sides in that level... Championship in the next one down (5 regions).

[theoriginalhedge]

1 hour ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Agree with everything Jan Vojacek says

 

The leagues are fine. Leave them alone. People are only arsed about their own team anyway, who is really bothered whether they’ve got 4 games against Morton a season or 2 against Morton and 2 against QOTS or whatever (swap teams to suit as applicable).
 

Who really cares, it’s weird. I look forward to watching Arbroath every Saturday - who they’re playing does not bother me in the slightest and the main reason I enjoy watching football and the outcomes of football matches is due to having something meaningful on the line. Nothing games after 2/3rds of a season would be fkn awful

The whole point of this thread has obviously been lost on you. The first battle has been won in staving off the ridiculous Conference .  The next battle is to convince the authorities that there are other options out there for young up and coming talented players other than having this colt team concept which they think is exclusive to the premier clubs.

Perhaps having an  18 team league would give a lot more teams the opportunity to play younger players without the continual fear of relegation looming over them. It would also negate the need for colt sides in the SPFL set up altogether.(a reserve league would be more benefit to them ) .  There would obviously be the play off places at the top of the league and hopefully a fairer relegation system at the bottom to create a real pyramid . 

For the SFA to only have one choice to vote on with no other option to consider  is somewhat ridiculous .  I would hope that the feedback from clubs and supporters realise this and come up with a fairer solution that doesn't alienate the bottom 200 or so clubs in the so called current pyramid. 

Also worth mentioning , in the 2 seasons Brechin have been in the Highland League there has never been the slightest hint of a meaningless game from the supporters who , like you go along to watch their team try to win a football match. 

When there is prize money at stake for finishing higher in the league as it will be in League 2 , surely that is motivation in itself for teams to want to win to secure bonuses etc. 

 

[1320Lichtie]

9 minutes ago, theoriginalhedge said:

The whole point of this thread has obviously been lost on you. The first battle has been won in staving off the ridiculous Conference .  The next battle is to convince the authorities that there are other options out there for young up and coming talented players other than having this colt team concept which they think is exclusive to the premier clubs.

Perhaps having an  18 team league would give a lot more teams the opportunity to play younger players without the continual fear of relegation looming over them. It would also negate the need for colt sides in the SPFL set up altogether.(a reserve league would be more benefit to them ) .  There would obviously be the play off places at the top of the league and hopefully a fairer relegation system at the bottom to create a real pyramid . 

For the SFA to only have one choice to vote on with no other option to consider  is somewhat ridiculous .  I would hope that the feedback from clubs and supporters realise this and come up with a fairer solution that doesn't alienate the bottom 200 or so clubs in the so called current pyramid. 

Also worth mentioning , in the 2 seasons Brechin have been in the Highland League there has never been the slightest hint of a meaningless game from the supporters who , like you go along to watch their team try to win a football match. 

When there is prize money at stake for finishing higher in the league as it will be in League 2 , surely that is motivation in itself for teams to want to win to secure bonuses etc. 

 

It’s not meaningless because you’re going for the league

 

And no the point of the thread has not been lost on me, I was just stating I agree with Jon Vojacek.

 

Also agree with The Moonster regarding 9th placed finishes. 

 

 

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

It’s not meaningless because you’re going for the league

 

 

And it wasn't meaningless for Clach as we were trying to stop them, and make the top half of the table. I much prefer the 18 team model, it seems gimmicky when you can be demoted or 3 or 4 wins from promotion simultaneously. Just wish there was greater movement from below and above with new places to visit every season. And Fraserburgh away is a fine day out but once a season is enough. 

[theoriginalhedge]

9 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

It’s not meaningless because you’re going for the league

 

And no the point of the thread has not been lost on me, I was just stating I agree with Jon Vojacek.

 

Also agree with The Moonster regarding 9th placed finishes. 

 

 

I was referring to supporters of all clubs not just ours. 

My points were suggesting that league 2 is perhaps not fine as it stands and could be managed better to promote more chances for youth players to develop rather than the colt idea. 

[1320Lichtie]

34 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

And it wasn't meaningless for Clach as we were trying to stop them, and make the top half of the table. I much prefer the 18 team model, it seems gimmicky when you can be demoted or 3 or 4 wins from promotion simultaneously. Just wish there was greater movement from below and above with new places to visit every season. And Fraserburgh away is a fine day out but once a season is enough. 

There’s you just saying you want new places to visit each season which you get all the time with 10 team divisions and to me if that’s the sole aim of a club that is meaningless, in my opinion. Trying to stop a team from winning the league or being in the top 9 teams of an 18 team division isn’t my idea of meaningful. 

30 minutes ago, theoriginalhedge said:

I was referring to supporters of all clubs not just ours. 

My points were suggesting that league 2 is perhaps not fine as it stands and could be managed better to promote more chances for youth players to develop rather than the colt idea. 

And I honestly couldn’t care less about youth players. If a players good enough they’ll make it. Scotland national team right now is packed full of talent and none of them were kicking around the arse end of League 2 no able to get a game cause the divisions were too small at 18 year old.
 

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by 1320Lichtie

[O'Kelly Isley III]

As one of the more mature posters on here, this thread has me recalling the year 1967, arguably Scotland's finest season of club and international football.

Funnily enough there were only two senior divisions of 18 and 19 clubs respectively with no doubt some 'meaningless games', but that was offset somewhat by straight home/away league fixtures.

And here's a funny thing; free from the need to make every fixture 'meaningful' it was much easier to introduce younger players, and astonishingly almost every one of them was Scottish.

Look around other countries and see how many are operating small but very repetitive divisions.  You won't find many so why are we persisting with it ?

[theoriginalhedge]

40 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

There’s you just saying you want new places to visit each season which you get all the time with 10 team divisions and to me if that’s the sole aim of a club that is meaningless, in my opinion. Trying to stop a team from winning the league or being in the top 9 teams of an 18 team division isn’t my idea of meaningful. 

And I honestly couldn’t care less about youth players. If a players good enough they’ll make it. Scotland national team right now is packed full of talent and none of them were kicking around the arse end of League 2 no able to get a game cause the divisions were too small at 18 year old.
 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong  but with a 10 team league you  only get 9 places to visit whereas.........