Steve Clarke - in/out/general discussion

[gerrymcc1978]

1 minute ago, Owsley 2 said:

If Hungary could start Styles, whose greatest achievement has been 12 games for Sunderland, then we could have given Ryan Gauld a chance or Danny Armstrong or both. Players who could have created something. But he picked James Forrest and Lewis Morgan. He's been great for us but it's time for a change.

it does seem he sticks with players through loyalty, i mean serie a midfielder of the year struggles to get minutes.

[accies1874]

It's clear that folk haven't fully appreciated what Clarke's done for the national team. He created a system that worked, evolved it over the years and managed to reduce the number of questionable call-offs which has helped create more consistency in selections. That's not to say that he's exempt from criticism or even being sacked, but he's managed to turn apathy into the best four years supporting Scotland that many of us have ever had.

Plenty of people have never taken to him - "two penalty shootouts", "back door to the Euros", "one good season at Kilmarnock" and countless other crap excuses for why he's actually a shite manager - which kind of delegitimises their arguments when it comes to bad moments like this one. This and June 2022 have been the closest I've got to thinking that it might be worth moving him on, however, like in 2022, he's done enough as Scotland manage to merit more time to show that he can respond to massive disappointment. 

[Galajambo]

On 19/06/2024 at 19:48, Granny Danger said:

One of the few things Steve Clarke has going for him is that he’s not David Moyes.

If you would seriously take Clark over Moyes, then that's just crazy! 

Edited Monday at 09:06 by Galajambo

[gerrymcc1978]

Just now, accies1874 said:

It's clear that folk haven't fully appreciated what Clarke's done for the national team. He created a system that worked, evolved it over the years and managed to reduce the number of questionable call-offs which has helped create more consistency in selections. That's not to say that he's exempt from criticism or even being sacked, but he's managed to turn apathy into the best four years supporting Scotland that many of us have ever had.

Plenty of people have never taken to him - "two penalty shootouts", "back door to the Euros", "one good season at Kilmarnock" and countless other crap excuses for why he's actually a shite manager - which kind of delegitimises their arguments when it comes to bad moments like this one. This and June 2022 have been the closest I've got to thinking that it might be worth moving him on, however, like in 2022, he's done enough as Scotland manage to merit more time to show that he can respond to massive disappointment. 

I've always been quite patient with him, but he doesn't seem to learn in the bigger games, we are too passive nothing has changed in that sense. that cannot continue.

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 minute ago, accies1874 said:

It's clear that folk haven't fully appreciated what Clarke's done for the national team. He created a system that worked, evolved it over the years and managed to reduce the number of questionable call-offs which has helped create more consistency in selections. That's not to say that he's exempt from criticism or even being sacked, but he's managed to turn apathy into the best four years supporting Scotland that many of us have ever had.

Plenty of people have never taken to him - "two penalty shootouts", "back door to the Euros", "one good season at Kilmarnock" and countless other crap excuses for why he's actually a shite manager - which kind of delegitimises their arguments when it comes to bad moments like this one. This and June 2022 have been the closest I've got to thinking that it might be worth moving him on, however, like in 2022, he's done enough as Scotland manage to merit more time to show that he can respond to massive disappointment. 

Clarke will be getting the fist pump out for this post

[Butters Scotch]

7 minutes ago, SH Panda said:

No nation our size (or even twice as big) has qualified for five successive world cups from the European section in the modern game.

It would be a minor miracle if Scotland were to achieve it, and for me far better than 1 good tournament getting to the last 16 (we have been last 8 in the euros before).

The best chance Scotland has to improve? Mass immigration.

Until then we will perform broadly as you would expect a nation of our size to perform, doing well sometimes, doing badly sometimes. Worse than some of our peers, and better than some far larger countries.

 

Sweden and Greece would have rather qualified and had our three matches than not qualify at all.

 

Why does it have to be successive? Croatia have qualified six times since 98 as well multiple euros within that time frame. Denmark five times since 98 plus multiple euros as two examples 

[ahemps]

10 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

This is my take on things.  This squad isn’t going to get any better.  
 

It’s not the players’ fault, but MacGregor, Adams and Armstrong were running on empty.  Several of the players looked absolutely spent about an hour in.  Not much Clarke could do about that. 
 

What he could have done is set the team up to play somewhere in between the second gear (first 80 minutes) and hell for leather (last 10).   And he could have given Adams a modicum of support.  It was unreal how isolated he was. 
 

Edit; the Nations League has the potential to be very painful viewing. 

I think there is more Clarke could have done. Adams was given no support, if his role is to be up top alone then he should be asked to do that for say 60minutes then either he gets more support or make changes. McGregor played every minute when Gilmour was benched 1 game and didn't complete 90 in the other 2.

Christie wasn't bad this tournament but always makes way for other players, why was he not given more time when others looked like they needed a rest.

 

[BB_Bino]

8 hours ago, Young Eddie said:

SFA as always is the problem here. Why are our kids still playing 11 a side competitive games on full size pitches? Just focus on skills and technical side until the teenage years then start introducing competitive matches. Then we might have a team of 11 players who are comfortable on the ball, have mastered the basics and are coachable.

Very strange post, as this is exactly what is being done at Grassroots level. Our youngsters play non-competitive 4 aside, non-competitive 5 aside, non-competitive 7 aside, non-competitive 9 aside then at the age of 12/13 move into competitive 11 aside on full size pitches.  You also have companies such as Coerver & Box Soccer making a fortune in hammering home the message of ball mastery and providing the ethos to some of the countries biggest academies, including Rangers and Hearts, and who knows how many 1-1 or Small Group training companies have popped up over the years, working on skills.

Go on ANY SFA coaching course on the youth pathway, and they'll hammer home the message that young players should be exposed to equal game time in every position, that they should be comfortable on the ball and that we should be playing a modern brand of football etc etc, however if coaches go back to their teams and implement something different or decide to stick to the old Scottish traditions then there's nothing the SFA can do about that, out with the performance schools.

In 17 years of working in grassroots and youth development football, I've met some of the worst people with the worst attitudes, but I have also met some of the best. The SFA have no control, they can only tell you what they would like but ultimately it's up to the teams and clubs on what they do. The leagues, follow what the SFA tell them, so again, not much they can do either.

Where I would agree with your statement is in Goalkeeping. We've got boys 2ft 0 standing in full sized goals at 9 a-side and in 1st and 2nd year at High School football, why?? Have a look on any grassroots advertising pages on Facebook and you'll see a lack of keepers throughout the age group....no wonder, the position is completely overlooked throughout, then when a lot of kids decide they would like to do it, they're stuck in full sized goals, shots go over their heads and they walk away from the game/position. I have raised this point with Fraser Stewart (SFA Head of Goalkeeping) via 3 different emails since 2018 and still await a reply on the reason why.....although the SFA Officer in my area informs me it's due to lack of facilities.

A few years back, there was a big shift in Youth Development in this country, it may have been under Malky Mackay's time or it may have been slightly before, but they called it Project Brave. It be honest, in my opinion the SFA tried to implement good things, they tried to move away from all the stereotypes but they can only do so much. If a grassroot coach doesn't give a young player all the tools to put in his toolbag to use on a match day, then that's down to the coach (and you've got to question why they are involved in the first place)......however if the parent can also see this happening from the sidelines then they can also intervene and move that young footballer to another team who do (they must take some responsibility in the decision makings) although believe it or not, I have probably come across more parents that encourage the stereotypical behaviours than discourage it. The amount of young players that move around clubs because they are winning, is frightening. Their own development is overlooked for the short term success, also, the amount of clubs that just want to recruit players rather than develop them, just to send them to big academies, is also frightening. Anyone involved in grassroots football will know how much of a thankless task it is, and anyone involved will have seen exactly this, again, the SFA can't control this imho.

You also get the older ages groups, the u20's & u18's, a large number of the players that make it to this level, pro-youth or otherwise, are very good technical players. Comfortable on the ball and well drilled in playing. Very often on a Friday night or Sunday, I'll watch players where I just don't get why they are not in and about the First Team. I've watched u20's on a Friday night and watched better football than the First Team on a Saturday, yet every summer these squads are emptied and the next crop come through and the cycle repeats. First Team managers in this country simply don't give (enough) kids an opportunity, but I will leave this part for another day.

I'm not saying the SFA are perfect and do no wrong, I don't believe that at all. However, I think they are trying to do the right things but are restricted because they have no real power over the clubs and how they are run.

[RedLichtie86]

For me Clarke has done an excellent job getting us performing in the qualifiers.

 

 

But poor/horrific during the main event.

Euro 2020.

Scotland v Czechia - Our first game back in a major competition and *Home* advantage. Finally we are back. Its been a long hard road but lets make it count.

We lose 2-0 in the end. We were in the game and had some good chances to score. Caused the Czech's problems. But the 2nd goal killed us. Still have no idea why Marshall was so far out his box. A hard one to take.

 

England v Scotland - we needed a result to stay in the competition. A battling performance and the game ends 0-0. Yes it was a draw but to avoid defeat too those b*****ds felt like a victory at the time.

Scotland v Croatia - We needed to win.

Despite some good play and chamces we ended up losing 3-1 to a strong Croatia side. We should have done better.

Euro 2024.

Germany v Scotland - fucking shambolic. Went into that game looking to lose. And we end up getting pumped 5-1. Should have been 10-0 if the Germans hadnt eased off like they did. We were so shit that we will never be allowed to forget that result.

Scotland v Switzerland - A game where we were fired up for it. Right from the start we looked to put the Swiss on the back foot. Though we rode our luck and the Swiss should have scored more we end up with a 1-1 draw. We needed to make changes earlier if we wanted to get a win which was frustrating.

 

Scotland v Hungary - We needed a win. We needed a performance. We needed to show we are good enough to play at the Euros.

What did we get.

A turgid, depressing, feable performance. Hungary just sat back and let us have the ball yet we offered no attacking threat. Just passed the ball sideways and backwards. Clarke unable to deviate from his tactical setup, to look to exploit it, to switch things up. Just same old same old. Barely mustered a shot at goal or a corner. Just looked to play for set pieces and lump it into the box. Only to fail at that too.

 

 

Kept faith with the same players regardless of how they performed during the game and then left it far too late to make changes.

 

A truely shite performance summed up by conceding a very late goal on the counter attack. But in truth we deserved to lose as we did f**k all that game. At least Hungary were attempting to score goals.

EURO 2020 was poor. We should have done better but at least we tried. A bit of luck herr or there and we would have done better.

But at EURO 2024 we barely even turned up. One of the worst performance of any team at any EURO's. All those fans come across to support the team only to be served up a shite sandwich and washed down by a bottle of Clarke's pish.

 

The warning signs were there in the friendlies. We failed to prepare. He failed to adapt and look at players out with the usual players unless he absolutely had too. He took players that were clearly out of form, not fit, not good enough anymore and just expected them to play like before just because he knows them.

What next. Who knows. If Clarke stays he needs to seriously start to bring other players in and give them a chance. Drop the old guard and pave a path forward for others.

If he goes then we need a manager that is capable to try new things. Make changes when needed and know when things are not right.

 

[pub car king]

There are 2 issues for me.

In terms of this tournament despite the injuries the squad that was picked had enough in it to manage more than 3 shots on target over 3 games. Hungary were beatable but we made them look decent and the penalty wouldn't have changed that. In fact had we got through it would be ironic that the worst Scotland showing at a tournament was the one we finally buried the hoodoo.

The second thing is a longer term issue not just down to Clarke pretty much every Scotland manager was guilty of this. Ee do not play youngsters in any meaningful way. Spain are starting a 16 year old Turkey have the "Turkish Messi". 

There's a nations league coming up where in all likelihood we will finish bottom of it. Why not use it to blood some of the under 21 players let them get used to international football and let them make mistakes in something that isn't as important as qualifiers. 

  

[Granny Danger]

7 minutes ago, Galajambo said:

If you would seriously take Clark over Moyes, than that's just crazy! 

I cannot stand Moyes and wouldn’t want him as Scotland manager.

[JS_FFC]

Is there another manager in the world of international football that took 2 points total from 2 separate tournaments and was allowed to keep his job?
 

It’s absolutely absurd that anyone is suggesting he shouldn’t be sacked. Keeping him would send a clear signal to the players, the fans and the footballing world that we are content to just qualify and then crash out with a whimper every time. 

[velo army]

I echo others here who don't have a lot of faith in the SFA finding the right man, but I think they should go down the route the Irish did with Trappatoni and secure outside (private) funding. 

I want us to be ambitious and go for Ancelotti. I'm fairly sure we could get some Scottish rich cvnts to pay for a 4 year contract. I'm serious about Carlo too. If not him then someone else  top tier. Even PnB favourite Jürgen Klopp. 

[Plymouth Par]

He has enough credit with me so Clarke to stay but think he and all the other parties involved need to go away and pick the bits out of what has gone on for the next qualifying campaign and tournament should we qualify. Experience is invaluable

 

Edited Monday at 09:04 by Plymouth Par

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 minute ago, velo army said:

I echo others here who don't have a lot of faith in the SFA finding the right man, but I think they should go down the route the Irish did with Trappatoni and secure outside (private) funding. 

I want us to be ambitious and go for Ancelotti. I'm fairly sure we could get some Scottish rich cvnts to pay for a 4 year contract. I'm serious about Carlo too. If not him then someone else  top tier. Even PnB favourite Jürgen Klopp. 

Are you trying to derail the foreign manager movement by touting the most unrealistic names

[BB_Bino]

5 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I cannot stand Moyes and wouldn’t want him as Scotland manager.

Oh well.......that'll be that then!

[Lex]

2 minutes ago, velo army said:

I echo others here who don't have a lot of faith in the SFA finding the right man, but I think they should go down the route the Irish did with Trappatoni and secure outside (private) funding. 

I want us to be ambitious and go for Ancelotti. I'm fairly sure we could get some Scottish rich cvnts to pay for a 4 year contract. I'm serious about Carlo too. If not him then someone else  top tier. Even PnB favourite Jürgen Klopp. 

Don't think Ancelotti will be leaving Real Madrid to come manage Scotland, nice thought though. We will have plenty of willing managerial candidates from the second tier of international coaches.

Or we could get Moyes or McInnes from the Scottish managers. Clarke got the Scotland job after doing a decent job at Killie, so why not Del. 

[Frankie S]

Anyone who thinks we’re getting closer to the top ranked teams is deluding themselves. Hard to believe it’s only 15 months since we dispatched Spain 2-0 at Hampden, as our form has fallen off a cliff since then. We’ve got a decent first XI, if everyone is fit, but the drop off in quality after that is steep. 

Losing Hickey was a massive blow, as he’ll certainly go on to be one of our key players for the next decade and more. Ralston did ok last night, but he’s just not up to international level. Ferguson, while playing a fairly peripheral role for Scotland so far, was Série A midfielder of the season, and would have given us some depth, and Dykes, despite having a poor season at his club, is fairly central to how we play under Clarke. Losing Tierney to injury in the Switzerland game certainly didn’t help. Given the shallowness of our squad, losing one or two key players due to injury was always likely to impact out ability to compete even with middle ranking nations such as Switzerland and Hungary, let alone elite teams such as Germany, but losing four was terminal. 

Adams, Robertson and McTominay (who Ten Hag clearly played when not fully fit in a number of games towards the end of the season) were clearly carrying injuries coming in to the tournament, and weren’t quite at their best, and McGinn continued to look jaded after a long, hard season with Villa. 

We played like a team bereft of form, fitness and confidence, and the complete lack of guile, creativity and pace in the team made us a tough watch during this tournament. 

I’m not entirely surprised that Clarke persevered with Adams up front, as Shankland’s sole contribution against Gibraltar (and I was one of the small contingent in Faro) was to get out of the way to let Christie score the opener, and despite grabbing a goal against Finland, he looked slow, ponderous and just not on the same wavelength as his team mates in those games. Admittedly, he looked a bit sharper last night when he came on. 

At the game last night, it was frustrating to watch how often Gilmour and McGregor (particularly) took the simple option and passed back to our central defenders rather than looked for a forward pass. As a result, Hendry, McKenna and Hanley had more of the ball than anyone else on the team. It’s both obvious and euphemistic to state that they’re not the best footballers in the team. To paraphrase the old Mike and Bernie Winters joke, when the ball was (inevitably) passed back to one or other of them, then along the line, we were confronted with the despairing conclusion that, ‘Aw Christ…..there’s THREE of them!’ 

Let’s be honest, we’ve been absolutely rank for well for over a year. It doesn’t look like Clarke has a plan B, let alone a plan C or D. It’s hard to escape the conclusion that this team peaked 15 months ago, and it’s been downhill ever since. We were completely outclassed against France and England, although the former had the mitigation of seeing us field a shadow side, but we were equally dismal against detritus like Gibraltar, Northern Ireland and Finland. 

The most worrying thing is this group of players might be the best we’ve had for many years, and might be as good as it gets for a while. There’s clearly no conveyor belt of talent coming through from Scott Gemmill’s Galacticos. Doak, assuming he gets back to fitness and gets a few starts for Liverpool next season, is probably our best shot at an attacking ´prodigy’ for many years, but he’s far from the finished article. Conway looked lively when he came on against Finland, and let’s hope he continues to develop, but apart from that, the cupboard looks worryingly bare. 

I don’t mind Clarke as a manager, but the team seems at least partly reflective of his dour personality. The team’s recent performances are almost as dismally uninspiring as his press conferences. You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear though, and the tools at his disposal aren’t great. We simply don’t have enough players that can create chances or score goals at a high level - we’ve  been over-reliant on McTominay and McGinn chipping in with goals from midfield for too long, and it’s hard to see anyone else stepping up to help share the goals around. For all he has his favourites, it’s hard to see who Clarke’s not picking that he should be picking. 

[Iain]

For me, his comments about the referee after the game should be a sackable offence, regardless of on-field performance. But that was also unacceptable so he should definitely go.

[eez-eh]

28 minutes ago, SH Panda said:

No nation our size (or even twice as big) has qualified for five successive world cups from the European section in the modern game.

You’ll never sing that!