Steve Clarke

[Fuctifano]

57 minutes ago, kennie makevin said:

That's because there weren't any. In fact I would struggle to name one outstanding Scottish international goalkeeper performance in my lifetime. All I remember are the disasters.... Stewart Kennedy at Wembley...Alan Rough on occasions too numerous to mention......Jim 'Jumpin' Jack Flap' Leighton....Craig Gordon's probably been the best but not a high bar.

.

Jim Leighton vs Sweden at Ibrox in WC98 qualifiers, they absolutely pummeled us and we held on to win 1-0 with Leighton making save after save

Edited June 28, 2023 by Fuctifano

[KingRocketman II]

1 hour ago, kennie makevin said:

That's because there weren't any. In fact I would struggle to name one outstanding Scottish international goalkeeper performance in my lifetime. All I remember are the disasters.... Stewart Kennedy at Wembley...Alan Rough on occasions too numerous to mention......Jim 'Jumpin' Jack Flap' Leighton....Craig Gordon's probably been the best but not a high bar.

 

interested to hear the Rough disastrous games.....what goals did he concede that otherwise were pretty routine saves? 

[kennie makevin]

1 hour ago, Self-raising Lazarus said:

You do remember our play off against Serbia right?

 

 

Solid performance...

[Skyline Drifter]

5 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Collins made the best save in that game.

I'll visit highlights for a look though.  I missed most of the first half of that game because we had a meeting at work that, inexplicably, still went ahead.  In fact, it was prolonged by people actually asking questions and raising points at the end.  My seethe was off the scale.

Ha, you're not exactly unbiased here though. Your love for Andy Goram makes you look like a Lyndon Dykes fanboy!

Goram was outstanding in that Dutch game by the way (as much as you're right about the Collins save, we'd never have got away with that in the VAR era).

 

Have to say there's some absolutely wild shouts in the last couple of pages. Robert Snodgrass? Seriously? He was barely an automatic pick at his best in a poorer side. I appreciate striker is perceived to be our weakest position too but the number of people lauding Steven Fletcher is surprising.

What players of the past should be considered for the current squad is an interesting one. It obviously depends to an extent how far back you go but I do tend to agree with @craigkillie that most of the squad could be bettered or at least seamlessly replaced by someone over the last 20 years. How many of the current squad are all time greats at this stage? Robertson and Tierney probably. Potentially McGinn. Gordon if we're still counting him. Hickey and Patterson on the right have a lot of potential but neither's even made it to 15 appearances yet. McGregor, McTominay and Gilmour may also go on to be seen as such but they're not there yet.

In goal we can clearly better Angus Gunn and a 40 year old Gordon. I'd certainly pick peak Goram ahead of either. Probably peak Leighton and certainly peak Craig Gordon. McGregor at his best was better too. Probably Marshall too for that matter. In fact I'd probably put Neil Sullivan ahead of our current position too.

If we're going to assume a wingback system we've probably never had better on the left than the Robertson / Tierney combination. Alan Hutton certainly worthy of discussion on the right but I feel Hickey will be better. Patterson likely will be too if he can avoid the injuries that have blighted him so far and also ultimately did for Hutton.

Hendry and Calderwood was a good pairing at the back.Richard Gough was an outstanding centre half for a long period. If you go back far enough, Miller and McLeish too. Alan Hansen was never half the player with Scotland that he was with Liverpool.

We've had some wonderful midfielders over the years. Paul Lambert, Barry Ferguson and Darren Fletcher would certainly be in the mix. Maybe Brown, Hartley, McAllister also. Souness if you go back far enough. I'm not sure any of them are massively better than what we have now, we're superbly well off in the middle, but they wouldn't represent a drop off in level either.

We've had better forwards than Dykes and Adams obviously. Dalglish certainly for those old enough, Law if you're even older but I can't claim that one personally. Mo Johnston was genuinely top class at one point albeit not for a massively long period of time. McCoist is better than what we currently have too. Even Kevin Gallacher for a period would be a sure pick. But I wouldn't have considered Steven Fletcher as any better. Not sure Miller was either.

There's also the obvious maverick James McFadden role. I'm not sure where he'd fit in the current side, certainly not in the shape that beat Georgia last week. He could do the Christie role I guess and I'd take him over Christie.

Nothing surer than I'll have missed someone VERY obvious too.........

Edited June 28, 2023 by Skyline Drifter

[Skyline Drifter]

17 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Sides in the 80s and 90s were comparable to what we currently have.

The depth we now have is encouraging, but we need to achieve more, for longer, in order to justify the hyperbole littering this thread.

Were they though?

They got to tournaments regularly but it was easier to do so then than it has been recently (appreciate the expansion is making it a bit easier again now).

If he's 38 we're starting from the 86 world cup group. The 86 team was decent defensively with Leighton, Malpas, Gough, Miller & McLeish but not sure it was all that great in the attacking half of the side either. We didn't qualify for the 88 Euros. By the 90 World Cup I'm not sure we were any better than in 86. By then Johnston was probably at his peak as a forward and we had decent midfielders like McStay and McCall. Roxburgh stuck with Leighton too long and the defensive unit wasn't probably as solid despite the emergence of Gough as a genuine top class defender.

I suspect the 92 Euros saw the best side we had in the last 40 years probably and effectively finished in the top 6 of a Euros.

Since then we've not been particularly strong even including the 98 world cup group. You look back at that 98 squad now and it was a pretty weak squad to actually qualify for something. Fortunate qualifying draw helped.

We had a decent group in the very early 90's and it certainly had better players in some positions (the likes of Goram, Gough, Gallacher would certainly play in the current side) but it didn't have as much depth.

[Gordon EF]

46 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Were they though?

They got to tournaments regularly but it was easier to do so then than it has been recently (appreciate the expansion is making it a bit easier again now).

If he's 38 we're starting from the 86 world cup group. The 86 team was decent defensively with Leighton, Malpas, Gough, Miller & McLeish but not sure it was all that great in the attacking half of the side either. We didn't qualify for the 88 Euros. By the 90 World Cup I'm not sure we were any better than in 86. By then Johnston was probably at his peak as a forward and we had decent midfielders like McStay and McCall. Roxburgh stuck with Leighton too long and the defensive unit wasn't probably as solid despite the emergence of Gough as a genuine top class defender.

I suspect the 92 Euros saw the best side we had in the last 40 years probably and effectively finished in the top 6 of a Euros.

Since then we've not been particularly strong even including the 98 world cup group. You look back at that 98 squad now and it was a pretty weak squad to actually qualify for something. Fortunate qualifying draw helped.

We had a decent group in the very early 90's and it certainly had better players in some positions (the likes of Goram, Gough, Gallacher would certainly play in the current side) but it didn't have as much depth.

I'm 38 as well. I assumed "lifetime" really means the part of your life that you've been watching or aware of football and the national team. I have no memory whatsoever of the tournaments from 86-92. I can remember watching 96, and qualifying plus finals for 98. But really for folk my age, your ability to actually critically evaluate players starts somewhere around 2000. Pretty much the exact point in time where we went from being a good team to a poor one.

[Skyline Drifter]

32 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

I'm 38 as well. I assumed "lifetime" really means the part of your life that you've been watching or aware of football and the national team. I have no memory whatsoever of the tournaments from 86-92. I can remember watching 96, and qualifying plus finals for 98. But really for folk my age, your ability to actually critically evaluate players starts somewhere around 2000. Pretty much the exact point in time where we went from being a good team to a poor one.

Yeah, I agree with that. I think it's fairly obvious from his comment though that @Monkey Tennis was taking it absolutely literally though. There's no chance we've had better squads than the current one in the last 25 years.

EDIT - In my literal lifetime I could count the likes of Denis Law, Billy Bremner, even Jimmy Johnstone I think, but I've never actually seen any of them play for Scotland and been aware of it. I was born in 1970 but my first memories of watching Scotland are the Iran game at the 1978 world cup.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Skyline Drifter

[Ewanandmoreagain]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Ha, you're not exactly unbiased here though. Your love for Andy Goram makes you look like a Lyndon Dykes fanboy!

Goram was outstanding in that Dutch game by the way (as much as you're right about the Collins save, we'd never have got away with that in the VAR era).

 

Have to say there's some absolutely wild shouts in the last couple of pages. Robert Snodgrass? Seriously? He was barely an automatic pick at his best in a poorer side. I appreciate striker is perceived to be our weakest position too but the number of people lauding Steven Fletcher is surprising.

What players of the past should be considered for the current squad is an interesting one. It obviously depends to an extent how far back you go but I do tend to agree with @craigkillie that most of the squad could be bettered or at least seamlessly replaced by someone over the last 20 years. How many of the current squad are all time greats at this stage? Robertson and Tierney probably. Potentially McGinn. Gordon if we're still counting him. Hickey and Patterson on the right have a lot of potential but neither's even made it to 15 appearances yet. McGregor, McTominay and Gilmour may also go on to be seen as such but they're not there yet.

In goal we can clearly better Angus Gunn and a 40 year old Gordon. I'd certainly pick peak Goram ahead of either. Probably peak Leighton and certainly peak Craig Gordon. McGregor at his best was better too. Probably Marshall too for that matter. In fact I'd probably put Neil Sullivan ahead of our current position too.

If we're going to assume a wingback system we've probably never had better on the left than the Robertson / Tierney combination. Alan Hutton certainly worthy of discussion on the right but I feel Hickey will be better. Patterson likely will be too if he can avoid the injuries that have blighted him so far and also ultimately did for Hutton.

Hendry and Calderwood was a good pairing at the back.Richard Gough was an outstanding centre half for a long period. If you go back far enough, Miller and McLeish too. Alan Hansen was never half the player with Scotland that he was with Liverpool.

We've had some wonderful midfielders over the years. Paul Lambert, Barry Ferguson and Darren Fletcher would certainly be in the mix. Maybe Brown, Hartley, McAllister also. Souness if you go back far enough. I'm not sure any of them are massively better than what we have now, we're superbly well off in the middle, but they wouldn't represent a drop off in level either.

We've had better forwards than Dykes and Adams obviously. Dalglish certainly for those old enough, Law if you're even older but I can't claim that one personally. Mo Johnston was genuinely top class at one point albeit not for a massively long period of time. McCoist is better than what we currently have too. Even Kevin Gallacher for a period would be a sure pick. But I wouldn't have considered Steven Fletcher as any better. Not sure Miller was either.

There's also the obvious maverick James McFadden role. I'm not sure where he'd fit in the current side, certainly not in the shape that beat Georgia last week. He could do the Christie role I guess and I'd take him over Christie.

Nothing surer than I'll have missed someone VERY obvious too.........

Were Hendry and Calderwood not in a back three with Boyd ?

[PrestersKTID]

51 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Yeah, I agree with that. I think it's fairly obvious from his comment though that @Monkey Tennis was taking it absolutely literally though. There's no chance we've had better squads than the current one in the last 25 years.

EDIT - In my literal lifetime I could count the likes of Denis Law, Billy Bremner, even Jimmy Johnstone I think, but I've never actually seen any of them play for Scotland and been aware of it. I was born in 1970 but my first memories of watching Scotland are the Iran game at the 1978 world cup.

Definitely the best in terms of top level club representation. Players at Man u, Arsenal, liverpool, Villa, Brighton, southampton, Leeds, brentford, everton and bournemouth all represented. Guys from Serie A, belgium and Championship is a higher level these days aswell with players at top end. We're not picking the craig mackail smiths from league one any more.

Only 7 current players are scottish based. Mcgregor, Taylor, souttar,  Jack, Kelly, Clark and Shankland and only 1 is a starter, 2 are goalkeepers. Shows the change in last 20 years or so. 

When we almost qualified in 07 for euro 2008 it was probably 50/50 scottish based to english. And the english contingent was mostly second tier or lower.

[Ewanandmoreagain]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Yeah, I agree with that. I think it's fairly obvious from his comment though that @Monkey Tennis was taking it absolutely literally though. There's no chance we've had better squads than the current one in the last 25 years.

EDIT - In my literal lifetime I could count the likes of Denis Law, Billy Bremner, even Jimmy Johnstone I think, but I've never actually seen any of them play for Scotland and been aware of it. I was born in 1970 but my first memories of watching Scotland are the Iran game at the 1978 world cup.

At least you managed to miss the Peru game

[Skyline Drifter]

10 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

Were Hendry and Calderwood not in a back three with Boyd ?

Not how I remember it. Were they? Was Boyd not normally a full back in a back four?

9 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

At least you managed to miss the Peru game

I didn't. I had it in my head Iran was first. Was Peru first? If so then that's the first one I remember. Whatever, my first memories of the Scotland team were the three games in Argentina.

[Skyline Drifter]

16 minutes ago, PrestersKTID said:

Definitely the best in terms of top level club representation. Players at Man u, Arsenal, liverpool, Villa, Brighton, southampton, Leeds, brentford, everton and bournemouth all represented. Guys from Serie A, belgium and Championship is a higher level these days aswell with players at top end. We're not picking the craig mackail smiths from league one any more.

Only 7 current players are scottish based. Mcgregor, Taylor, souttar,  Jack, Kelly, Clark and Shankland and only 1 is a starter, 2 are goalkeepers. Shows the change in last 20 years or so. 

When we almost qualified in 07 for euro 2008 it was probably 50/50 scottish based to english. And the english contingent was mostly second tier or lower.

All true. Though you can potentially add Gordon if he returns from injury as another Scottish based and potentially starter too.

[ArabFC]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Not how I remember it. Were they? Was Boyd not normally a full back in a back four?

I didn't. I had it in my head Iran was first. Was Peru first? If so then that's the first one I remember. Whatever, my first memories of the Scotland team were the three games in Argentina.

I can only ever remember the Scotland team of that era playing a 3-5-2 type formation.

Calderwood - Hendry - Boyd

McAllister - Lambert - Collins

[MyNameIsClarence]

4 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

I'm 38 as well. I assumed "lifetime" really means the part of your life that you've been watching or aware of football and the national team. I have no memory whatsoever of the tournaments from 86-92. I can remember watching 96, and qualifying plus finals for 98. But really for folk my age, your ability to actually critically evaluate players starts somewhere around 2000. Pretty much the exact point in time where we went from being a good team to a poor one.

I'm about 10 years younger and would say my point for the same is a about 2007/8 so would agree with you there. Comparing teams from then up to now there's:

Several GKs

Hutton over Hickey

Weir (and probably more I forget right now) over current CHs

Ferguson and Fletcher over McTominay and McGregor

McFadden, Maloney, Snodgrass and potentially Anya for the role Christie most often plays

Maybe Fletcher over the CFs but he never really played for Scotland at his (early) peak because of injuries, levein and his own stupidity

[Snobot]

48 minutes ago, ArabFC said:

I can only ever remember the Scotland team of that era playing a 3-5-2 type formation.

Calderwood - Hendry - Boyd

McAllister - Lambert - Collins

Correct. 
 

LWB was Tosh McKinlay before  Christian Dailly at WC 98. Dailly was an incredible marauding LB with a fatal flaw in that he was very right footed. I remember him repeatedly destroying Norway down the left at WC 98 but having no end product. 

RWB was generally Burley as Brown didn’t seem to trust McNamara. McAllister’s injury prior to WC 98 led to a weird Darren Jackson in midfield v Brazil situation (much to the surprise of everyone), then in the Morocco game Burley finally got his chance to play in his preferred CM position and promptly got himself sent off for a wild tackle, whilst sporting his terrible bleach dye job. 

[Monkey Tennis]

4 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Yeah, I agree with that. I think it's fairly obvious from his comment though that @Monkey Tennis was taking it absolutely literally though. There's no chance we've had better squads than the current one in the last 25 years.

EDIT - In my literal lifetime I could count the likes of Denis Law, Billy Bremner, even Jimmy Johnstone I think, but I've never actually seen any of them play for Scotland and been aware of it. I was born in 1970 but my first memories of watching Scotland are the Iran game at the 1978 world cup.

Whit?

You don't remember the Peru game, or Wembley 77, or Anfield against Wales?

What is wrong with you man?

 

Of course I took "in my lifetime" literally.  What you're on about would require reference to "in my living memory" or some such.

I didn't claim the earlier sides were better than what we've got now anyway.  I said they were "comparable".  Until the current lot achieve a bit more, I think we'd have a job swearing they're miles ahead.

[Skyline Drifter]

35 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Whit?

You don't remember the Peru game, or Wembley 77, or Anfield against Wales?

What is wrong with you man?

 

Of course I took "in my lifetime" literally.  What you're on about would require reference to "in my living memory" or some such.

I didn't claim the earlier sides were better than what we've got now anyway.  I said they were "comparable".  Until the current lot achieve a bit more, I think we'd have a job swearing they're miles ahead.

As we've subsequently established. I do remember the Peru game, I just had it in my head Iran was first. I don't remember any Scotland games before that World Cup, no. I presume I must have been doing something else when the England and Wales games happened (assuming they were actually on live tv were they?).

I've already agreed with you that the 92 team (at least) was comparable, indeed it achieved more, although I don't think the squad was as deep.

[Ewanandmoreagain]

7 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Were they though?

They got to tournaments regularly but it was easier to do so then than it has been recently (appreciate the expansion is making it a bit easier again now).

If he's 38 we're starting from the 86 world cup group. The 86 team was decent defensively with Leighton, Malpas, Gough, Miller & McLeish but not sure it was all that great in the attacking half of the side either. We didn't qualify for the 88 Euros. By the 90 World Cup I'm not sure we were any better than in 86. By then Johnston was probably at his peak as a forward and we had decent midfielders like McStay and McCall. Roxburgh stuck with Leighton too long and the defensive unit wasn't probably as solid despite the emergence of Gough as a genuine top class defender.

I suspect the 92 Euros saw the best side we had in the last 40 years probably and effectively finished in the top 6 of a Euros.

Since then we've not been particularly strong even including the 98 world cup group. You look back at that 98 squad now and it was a pretty weak squad to actually qualify for something. Fortunate qualifying draw helped.

We had a decent group in the very early 90's and it certainly had better players in some positions (the likes of Goram, Gough, Gallacher would certainly play in the current side) but it didn't have as much depth.

It was easier to get to finals in the 80s and 90s than in 1966 and 1970 ( maybe 1962 as well )

Edited June 28, 2023 by Ewanandmoreagain

[Ewanandmoreagain]

2 hours ago, ArabFC said:

I can only ever remember the Scotland team of that era playing a 3-5-2 type formation.

Calderwood - Hendry - Boyd

McAllister - Lambert - Collins

Was Tosh McKinlay the LWB ?

( It might have been Boyd if Alan McLaren was playing )

Edited June 28, 2023 by Ewanandmoreagain

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

As we've subsequently established. I do remember the Peru game, I just had it in my head Iran was first. I don't remember any Scotland games before that World Cup, no. I presume I must have been doing something else when the England and Wales games happened (assuming they were actually on live tv were they?).

I've already agreed with you that the 92 team (at least) was comparable, indeed it achieved more, although I don't think the squad was as deep.

You didn't realise the Peru game was first?  That's even worse.

I assumed everyone our age had that entire tournament indelibly scarred onto their psyche, shaping their outlooks on football and indeed wider life, ever since.   Just me, then?

The England game in 1977 was of course live on telly.  The Wales game, funnily enough, was not freely available in our part of the world - it was before we got BBC Scotland throughout Dumfries.  My dad took me over to a pal of his in Pleasance Avenue to watch it, as we couldn't see it in Georgetown.