The Death Penalty

[scottsdad]

29 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

No. Not in any circumstances.

You lose all moral authority as a State when you enact laws against killing people, on the premise that it's incompatible with being a morally, ethically responsible civilisation, then set about executing people because they've broken some other law.

'What aboot justice for the victims families eh?' is utterly moronic, as it totally ignores the fact that the person you want to see put to death will often have a family themselves.

Pretty much sums up my stance, too.

[dirty dingus]

It's usually we'll naw kill all bad guys just the BAD ones, so we always get a sliding scale. Usually killing a polis = certain execution , what if you killed an animal like Wayne Couzens? Also I believe most of these mad paedo child killers are psychologically fucked in the head and are genuinely sick through horrendous abusive upbringings.  I think rotting in jail is punishment enough and you see the way these constant appeals in America for death row prisoners drag on and on I doubt the death sentence would be financially beneficial.  You'd also have the right wing press finding some excuse to hang brown folk from non-christian countries for rustling sweetie wrappers in the cinema or some other shite.

[Central Belt Caley]

I think it’s easy for people to get caught up in the emotion especially in the cases like Amber Gibson. It’s an utterly horrific crime and he deserves to spend the rest of his days in jail but I certainly wouldn’t agree with killing him. 
 

I’m not sure how I would feel if I was on a jury, found someone guilty and they are then sentenced to the death penalty. Would you then feel responsible for their death? 
 

There’s no place for it in a civilised society imo 

[GordonD]

The judge at the trial of either the Birmingham Six or the Guildford Four (I forget which) said when passing sentence that he wished the death penalty was still in existence as he would have no hesitation in applying it. Of course a few years down the line it turned out they were all innocent and were released from prison. If the doddering old git had got his way that wouldn't have been possible.

So no, never.

[TheScarf]

Just now, Central Belt Caley said:

I think it’s easy for people to get caught up in the emotion especially in the cases like Amber Gibson. It’s an utterly horrific crime and he deserves to spend the rest of his days in jail but I certainly wouldn’t agree with killing him. 
 

I’m not sure how I would feel if I was on a jury, found someone guilty and they are then sentenced to the death penalty. Would you then feel responsible for their death? 
 

There’s no place for it in a civilised society imo 

Yep, that too, imagine being on a jury that convicted someone who was then executed.  Fuck that.

Just now, GordonD said:

The judge at the trial of either the Birmingham Six or the Guildford Four (I forget which) said when passing sentence that he wished the death penalty was still in existence as he would have no hesitation in applying it. Of course a few years down the line it turned out they were all innocent and were released from prison. If the doddering old git had got his way that wouldn't have been possible.

So no, never.

And this too, many innocent people get executed.

[hk blues]

8 minutes ago, stimpy said:

I've struggled with spelling since childhood, I often can't see how words are built in my head or have to try and phonetically spell them out as I write them. I'm 48 and school in the 80s was do it and if you don't do it you aren't trying hard enough and if you still can't then you're thick. 

I lean heavily on spellcheckers but sometimes they fail me too.

I'm literally sweating typing this. 

My apologies.

My post was in jest but I accept how it caused offence, albeit unintended. 

 

[stimpy]

3 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

Also I believe most of these mad paedo child killers are psychologically fucked in the head and are genuinely sick through horrendous abusive upbringings.

While it happens it's not all the time, some people just have a screw loose. 

[Richey Edwards]

No.

However, I read about some offences and think it would be no bad thing if something were to happen to the offenders.

Prisons can be hostile and frightening places. I think living out the rest of your life in such a place with no chance of release would be a worse punishment than being put to death.

[hk blues]

2 minutes ago, Richey Edwards said:

No.

However, I read about some offences and think it would be no bad thing if something were to happen to the offenders.

Prisons can be hostile and frightening places. I think living out the rest of your life in such a place with no chance of release would be a worse punishment than being put to death.

I don't disagree with the sentiment but I'm of the opinion that once we drop down to the level of seeking retribution maybe we need to question what the justice system is about. 

I'm basically against capital punishment but would certainly not be opposed to using it in certain and extreme cases.  I'm not going to try to say which cases but I would not expect to see it handed down often, certainly not every year.  

 

[tamthebam]

6 minutes ago, GordonD said:

The judge at the trial of either the Birmingham Six or the Guildford Four (I forget which) said when passing sentence that he wished the death penalty was still in existence as he would have no hesitation in applying it. Of course a few years down the line it turned out they were all innocent and were released from prison. If the doddering old git had got his way that wouldn't have been possible.

So no, never.

To add to Gordon's excellent point there was Timothy Evans as well. He was hung for being the acid bath murderer and it was later discovered it was his neighbour who was the culprit. A posthumous pardon didn't help Evans much.

Ludovic Kennedy, an anti death penalty campaigner, used the case as an example and wrote a book about it.  The film "10 Rillington Place" is based on it (worth a watch).

As I said in another post the only European country to retain the death penalty is that paragon of democracy Belarus. Even Putin's Russia doesn't have it (officially). Those countries who do use it are on the whole not the best examples of well run democratic states.

[Richey Edwards]

2 minutes ago, hk blues said:

I don't disagree with the sentiment but I'm of the opinion that once we drop down to the level of seeking retribution maybe we need to question what the justice system is about. 

I'm basically against capital punishment but would certainly not be opposed to using it in certain and extreme cases.  I'm not going to try to say which cases but I would not expect to see it handed down often, certainly not every year.  

 

I didn't mean that I'd like to something to happen to them, just that I'd have no sympathy whatsoever if it did.

[hk blues]

2 minutes ago, Richey Edwards said:

I didn't mean that I'd like to something to happen to them, just that I'd have no sympathy whatsoever if it did.

You're probably in a minority then, I think the majority of folk would actively want some prison justice meted out to criminals like Connor Gibson.  

[dirty dingus]

15 minutes ago, stimpy said:

While it happens it's not all the time, some people just have a screw loose.

I think there are right evil b*****ds, but I think very few and far between. I think most can be put down to learned behaviour or psychological problems from narcissism, sociapathic to psychopathic traits.

[stimpy]

2 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

I think there are right evil b*****ds, but I think very few and far between. I think most can be put down to learned behaviour or psychological problems from narcissism, sociapathic to psychopathic traits.

This is specifically for serial killers and even then a sizeable 30% reported no abuse at all. 

Some can report abuse that didn't happen as they will get a thrill out of describing all kinds of horrific abuse and imagining it and fantasising about it. 

[GordonD]

11 minutes ago, tamthebam said:

To add to Gordon's excellent point there was Timothy Evans as well. He was hung for being the acid bath murderer and it was later discovered it was his neighbour who was the culprit. A posthumous pardon didn't help Evans much.

The acid bath murderer was somebody else but your point is still valid. 

People in favour of the death penalty often say "You'd feel different if it was your relative who was murdered" - which is precisely why the families shouldn't have a say as revenge is often top of the agenda there.

Also many said Harold Shipman should have been executed, yet when he hanged himself in prison they said they felt cheated!

[Boo Khaki]

I'd imagine the 30% of serial killers in the 'no abuse' category are still louping with all sorts of personality disorders and severe mental health issues. Quite simply, sane, healthy, well-adjusted, mentally stable people don't go around murdering several of their peers. As much as it pains me to say it, and it does unfortunately perpetuate stereotypes, you do get people suffering from illnesses like paranoid schizophrenia, or in the grip of a psychosis who will feel compelled to kill because of their illness.

I can't imagine there is any real instance of a prolific serial killer who neither suffered any sort of abuse in their childhood, nor shows any evidence of personality disorder or mental illness. Ed Kemper is interesting to listen to, because as much as he's obviously an egomaniac, he's really quite succinct when he talks about exactly how childhood neglect and abuse on the part of his mother and grandmother compelled him to commit his crimes.

[ICTChris]

Just now, Central Belt Caley said:

I think it’s easy for people to get caught up in the emotion especially in the cases like Amber Gibson. It’s an utterly horrific crime and he deserves to spend the rest of his days in jail but I certainly wouldn’t agree with killing him. 
 

I’m not sure how I would feel if I was on a jury, found someone guilty and they are then sentenced to the death penalty. Would you then feel responsible for their death? 
 

There’s no place for it in a civilised society imo 

One of the arguments for abolishing the death penalty is that it made juries less likely to find people guilty of murder.  In the US they usually seperate the verdict and the sentencing so juries can find someone guilty but not execution.

The best solution to violent crime is to incapacitate the ability of violent criminals to commit crime by imprisoning them.  Violent crime is disproportionately committed by a very small group of the population and aggressively targeting those people will help reduce crime.  Crime is also heavily concentrated so targeting this group will help improve life generally in the areas where it is concentrated and improve life for those who have to live in close proximity to criminals by removing often malevolent people from their lives.  There is even some evidence (not overwhelming) that parental incarceration can even be a positive by removing unstable, violent abusers from childrens lives.

Maybe you could achieve these goals by executing violent criminals but I'm not sure it would have the desired affect and if you wanted to use the death penalty as a deterent the level of killing would have to be pretty extreme.  If everyone who was convicted of, say, cocaine possession was immediately beheaded in the courtroom I bet fewer people would take cocaine but pretty obviously it wouldn't be worth it.  This is to leave aside the moral arguments against the death penalty, which other posters have touched on.

[dirty dingus]

6 minutes ago, stimpy said:

This is specifically for serial killers and even then a sizeable 30% reported no abuse at all. 

Some can report abuse that didn't happen as they will get a thrill out of describing all kinds of horrific abuse and imagining it and fantasising about it. 

Also some wouldn't want to admit to be abused being all macho and such.

[Richey Edwards]

2 minutes ago, hk blues said:

You're probably in a minority then, I think the majority of folk would actively want some prison justice meted out to criminals like Connor Gibson.  

My career has occasionally necessitated working with people who have done some really horrible things - including murder. I had (and still do have) a professional obligation as a mental health professional to work with them. Obviously I found their crimes abhorrent but I would have been in a lot of trouble if I had refused to work with them or treated them badly.

[Boo Khaki]

18 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Maybe you could achieve these goals by executing violent criminals but I'm not sure it would have the desired affect and if you wanted to use the death penalty as a deterent the level of killing would have to be pretty extreme.  If everyone who was convicted of, say, cocaine possession was immediately beheaded in the courtroom I bet fewer people would take cocaine but pretty obviously it wouldn't be worth it.  This is to leave aside the moral arguments against the death penalty, which other posters have touched on.

Every study I'm aware of that has investigated criminals and what would motivate/demotivate them concludes that severity of punishment is utterly inconsequential. It's not even a consideration for them. What is overwhelmingly significant is fear and likelihood of being detected and caught.

I doubt you can do much about the Ed Geins and Ted Bundy's of the world, because they aren't rational people in any sense really, but if you want to prevent children being abused, then it's obvious we need to protect them better, because that would then increase the likelihood of anyone planning to harm them being detected and either prevented or caught and punished more quickly. 

Again though, I think it's fair to question how rational people intending to harm vulnerable others will likely be.

Studies of self-confessed paedophiles are interesting, because a good number of them say that they would have been willing to engage with prevention schemes, including things like voluntary chemical castration, if the option had been available to them. Instead, we have this odd situation in the UK where we just sit back and wait for it to happen, then punish them after the fact, which does absolutely nothing in terms of lowering instance of abuse of children, which is what is universally agreed that we want. Can you imagine what would happen right now if someone, who had never ever acted on their impulses came forward at 18 or 20 years old and said 'I am a paedophile, help me before I commit a crime'?

Edited July 26, 2023 by Boo Khaki