The Death Penalty

[ICTChris]

3 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

I'd imagine the 30% of serial killers in the 'no abuse' category are still louping with all sorts of personality disorders and severe mental health issues. Quite simply, sane, healthy, well-adjusted, mentally stable people don't go around murdering several of their peers. As much as it pains me to say it, and it does unfortunately perpetuate stereotypes, you do get people suffering from illnesses like paranoid schizophrenia, or in the grip of a psychosis who will feel compelled to kill because of their illness.

I can't imagine there is any real instance of a prolific serial killer who neither suffered any sort of abuse in their childhood, nor shows any evidence of personality disorder or mental illness. Ed Kemper is interesting to listen to, because as much as he's obviously an egomaniac, he's really quite succinct when he talks about exactly how childhood neglect and abuse on the part of his mother and grandmother compelled him to commit his crimes.

I don't think many serial killers are particularly affected by psychosis.  If you are in a psychotic break you can't murder repeatedly in an organised way - you might murder one person in a frenzy because you are suffering from delusions but could you do it repeatedly without getting caught?  Serial killers often claim when they've been caught that they did what they did because of insanity but often this is a lie.  The famous example is the David Berkowitz, who said his neighbours dog channeled the devil and told him to kill - a total fabrication, he later admitted.  Same as Pete Sutclife, the Yorkshire Ripper - he said God spoke to him and told him to kill prostitutes yet when he murdered them he also sexually abused them and wore a 'rape kit' to avoid detection at every crime.  Did God tell him to do that?  The truth about why these men kill is so ugly that they cannot admit it even when confessing.  

The other fact is that the number of abused people who go on to commit murder (or become abusers themselves) is very small. 

[Boo Khaki]

Just now, ICTChris said:

I don't think many serial killers are particularly affected by psychosis.  If you are in a psychotic break you can't murder repeatedly in an organised way - you might murder one person in a frenzy because you are suffering from delusions but could you do it repeatedly without getting caught?  Serial killers often claim when they've been caught that they did what they did because of insanity but often this is a lie.  The famous example is the David Berkowitz, who said his neighbours dog channeled the devil and told him to kill - a total fabrication, he later admitted.  Same as Pete Sutclife, the Yorkshire Ripper - he said God spoke to him and told him to kill prostitutes yet when he murdered them he also sexually abused them and wore a 'rape kit' to avoid detection at every crime.  Did God tell him to do that?  The truth about why these men kill is so ugly that they cannot admit it even when confessing.  

The other fact is that the number of abused people who go on to commit murder (or become abusers themselves) is very small. 

Yip, they tend to be 'spree' killers rather than serial.

[Hedgecutter]

Make them think they're getting the lethal injection simply for the mental trauma that brings (you're aware of nothing when you're dead, so that part's not a punishment), but then 'reduce' it to a life sentence without parole, just for the double whammy.  That said, you'd need to kill the occasional one for it to work, wouldn't you. 

[ICTChris]

Outsource the death penalty to P&Bers.

"All morning I killed paedos..."

[Boo Khaki]

Just now, ICTChris said:

Outsource the death penalty to P&Bers.

"All morning I killed paedos..."

With a sledgehammer?

[stimpy]

I've had discussions with people who are pro death penalty for extreme cases and when I ask where their line is their answers are usually the same. The line is drawn just above where they think they could potentially take a life. This line is just above a drunk driver killing someone. I will argue that a life is a life and if you drink heaps and get behind the wheel then that's more than an accident. While none of us would drink and drive you could potentially given the right circumstances find yourself in that position. The death penalty only works if you do it to other people. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

Hingin's too good fur thum.

[Salt n Vinegar]

52 minutes ago, Central Belt Caley said:

I think it’s easy for people to get caught up in the emotion especially in the cases like Amber Gibson. It’s an utterly horrific crime and he deserves to spend the rest of his days in jail but I certainly wouldn’t agree with killing him. 
 

I’m not sure how I would feel if I was on a jury, found someone guilty and they are then sentenced to the death penalty. Would you then feel responsible for their death? 
 

There’s no place for it in a civilised society imo 

I think there's another issue here.  I've served on 2 juries and as you'd expect, they were both generally representative of society.  As it happened, apart from the victims testifying, both cases relied pretty heavily on forensic evidence which was very detailed and seemed, to me, compelling. There was no doubt in my mind that the accused in both cases were guilty.

On that basis, conviction was a fair and reasonable outcome.  However, recalling the various personalities and attitudes among the jurors, I'm not convinced that either jury would have convicted if the death penalty had been a likely option.

I have a feeling that guilty verdicts would become less common because the consequences of a "wrong" verdict would be horrendous.

[ICTChris]

I know someone who served on a jury where a juror said that they shouldn't convict the accused because "she'd go to prison and prison is a terrible place".

The accused stabbed someone while they were asleep.

[oneteaminglasgow]

23 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Every study I'm aware of that has investigated criminals and what would motivate/demotivate them concludes that severity of punishment is utterly inconsequential. It's not even a consideration for them.

Yeah, I think this is an important point. I’m sure studies from the USA consistently show that states with the death penalty have higher murder rates than ones without it. So any idea of it serving as a deterrent can be safely ignored - it doesn’t.

I think that if we look at countries which have low rates of violent crime, you’re generally looking at wealthy ones with strong welfare programmes. So it would suggest that deterrence isn’t really an answer a lot of the time, early intervention and prevention is.

And I also find the serial killer point interesting. Maybe there’s nothing that could’ve been done about your Jeffrey Dahmers of the world, but the USA specifically has a far, far higher number of recorded serial killers than anywhere else on the planet. Why is that? I’m not suggesting that I know the answer, but could there be something specific to American culture that means it creates these type of people more often than anywhere else does. 

[Salt n Vinegar]

2 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

I know someone who served on a jury where a juror said that they shouldn't convict the accused because "she'd go to prison and prison is a terrible place".

The accused stabbed someone while they were asleep.

There's another sort of attitude though. On the first jury I served on, one old "hang 'em and flog 'em" bloke was certain of the accused's guilt after hearing only the first witness, who was a prosecution witness. He hadn't heard a word from the defence. There's probably a worrying sort out there who would revel in being a member of the first jury to convince someone who ended up being executed.

I suppose that one could try to eliminate anyone who was a frequent Maily Dail reader from jury service but it would be quite a challenge.

[btb]

4 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

I know someone who served on a jury where a juror said that they shouldn't convict the accused because "she'd go to prison and prison is a terrible place".

The accused stabbed someone while they were asleep.

Probably been mentioned before but one of the reasons the death penalty was suspended (sic) in the UK was the perceived reluctance of juries to convict where hanging was the likely penalty due to miscarriages of justice in the 50s.

[GAD]

Just now, Salt n Vinegar said:

There's another sort of attitude though. On the first jury I served on, one old "hang 'em and flog 'em" bloke was certain of the accused's guilt after hearing only the first witness, who was a prosecution witness. He hadn't heard a word from the defence. There's probably a worrying sort out there who would revel in being a member of the first jury to convince someone who ended up being executed.

I suppose that one could try to eliminate anyone who was a frequent Maily Dail reader from jury service but it would be quite a challenge.

I was once on a jury where one woman's reason for finding the guy guilty was "no smoke without fire".

[alta-pete]

48 minutes ago, Richey Edwards said:

My career has occasionally necessitated working with people who have done some really horrible things - including murder. I had (and still do have) a professional obligation as a mental health professional to work with them. Obviously I found their crimes abhorrent but I would have been in a lot of trouble if I had refused to work with them or treated them badly.

Just think yourself lucky you don't have to run a bank!

[Musketeer Gripweed]

9 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

I know someone who served on a jury where a juror said that they shouldn't convict the accused because "she'd go to prison and prison is a terrible place".

The accused stabbed someone while they were asleep.

We've just done a lot of work at the new WNF at Cornton Vale and it's like a new hotel. It looks absolutely fantastic and nothing like what people would consider a prison. The days off punishing prisoners by doing menial tasks are long gone by the looks of it. Doesn't seem right to me, but I guess they have human rights the same as everyone else.

[Granny Danger]

3 minutes ago, GAD said:

I was once on a jury where one woman's reason for finding the guy guilty was "no smoke without fire".

Was it an arson case?

Anyway, of course we should reintroduce the death penalty.  Look how successful it’s been in the United States!

[Jacksgranda]

2 hours ago, stimpy said:

A few users on the Amber Gibson thread speaking about the death penalty so instead of trying to hyjack that one I thought I'd start one here. 

So what's your thoughts, straight yes/no or do you have a sliding scale and where's your line?

I'll keep my powder dry for now. 

That's cheating.

I'm a bit ambivalent.

Executing an innocent man can't be undone.

On the other hand, some people are incorrigible.

When I read about child murderers and paedophiles, I'd quite happily see them strung up.

So put me down as mibbe ays, mibbe naw.

[Newbornbairn]

50 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Every study I'm aware of that has investigated criminals and what would motivate/demotivate them concludes that severity of punishment is utterly inconsequential. It's not even a consideration for them. What is overwhelmingly significant is fear and likelihood of being detected and caught.

This.

 

Politicians can trot out all the pish about heavier sentencing and being "tough on crime" as much as they like but when they constantly cut police numbers (or cut Police support staff and make PCs do clerical work) they reduce the likelihood of people being caught and crime rises. 

 

Of course then they go about changing the reporting methods so they can fiddle the figures.

 

The problem with democracy is the fucking politicians. Hang em all. 

 

Quote

Recorded crime in England and Wales at 20-year high as charge rate hits new low  https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/21/recorded-in-england-and-wales-at-20-year-high-as-charge-rate-hits-new-low

Quote

New figures from the Scottish government show that there were 9,842 recorded cases of violent crime in 2021-22, the highest level in more than a decade. The number of sexual crimes recorded by police in 2021/22 stood at 14,556, a 15 per cent increase on the previous year. Reports of rape and attempted rape were up 10 per cent on 2020/21, while sexual assault was up 31 per cent.  https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/violent-crime-at-highest-level-for-a-decade

 

[Jacksgranda]

1 hour ago, tamthebam said:

To add to Gordon's excellent point there was Timothy Evans as well. He was hung for being the acid bath murderer and it was later discovered it was his neighbour who was the culprit. A posthumous pardon didn't help Evans much.

Ludovic Kennedy, an anti death penalty campaigner, used the case as an example and wrote a book about it.  The film "10 Rillington Place" is based on it (worth a watch).

As I said in another post the only European country to retain the death penalty is that paragon of democracy Belarus. Even Putin's Russia doesn't have it (officially). Those countries who do use it are on the whole not the best examples of well run democratic states.

Just don't go walking past windows once you get above the ground floor...

[coprolite]

56 minutes ago, Hedgecutter said:

Make them think they're getting the lethal injection simply for the mental trauma that brings (you're aware of nothing when you're dead, so that part's not a punishment), but then 'reduce' it to a life sentence without parole, just for the double whammy.  That said, you'd need to kill the occasional one for it to work, wouldn't you. 

You could pretend you've killed them but actually send them to an island, like a reverse Running Man