Dundee United v Queen’s Park - Saturday 30 September 2023 at 3.00pm

[Dave]

Always a concern to log in here and have multiple notifications the day after an away trip but thankfully that was posted before I watched the highlights. Goals conceded were even worse watching them back, and Paton had two great opportunities in the first half and he made the worst possible decision both times to waste them. 

I'm not one to call for managers heads, but I share the worry of other QP fans and 5 defeats in a row going into games against bogey team Morton and Falkirk who are flying in League 1 is a terrible situation to find ourselves in.

[williebraveheart]

2 hours ago, qpfc said:

Never expected a result in any scenario yesterday but as much as Veldman is quite rightly taking pelters for this season, i can’t help but be incredibly disappointed with Beuker’s contribution throughout the summer. A guy who comes across supremely confident (maybe too confident given his recruitment this summer) in his ability to recruit a squad that would bring exciting and dominant football. This was the first summer where I think Beuker had a full grip on things in terms of his vision of the club from top to bottom and as a fan, I was excited to see what he could produce 
 

Firstly, I had no doubts or anger that we’d have to take a step back from last season but the contrast to go from 90 minutes away from the premiership to a side that is now more than capable of finishing 10th in such a short space of time is embarrassing considering we’re not short of a penny. Cannot believe he didn’t sign anyone across the September loan window, genuinely astounding borderline negligent given the severe shortage of depth beyond a first eleven that looks bereft of confidence. 
 

We can go on about tactics for as long as we want to but what’s became abundantly clear already in October is that the club are most likely paying very generous wages on a multi year contract to a glorified Laurie Ellis 2.0. Worryingly, in recent interviews when talking about the opposition or even our own team, Veldman is always referring to experience and the importance of it. It’s almost as if he’s now realising that playing a high quantity of kids with zero first team experience was a bad idea… 

I agree but seriously when you think about it if either Beuker or Veldman were any good at Alkmaar or Anderlecht they would not be at Queen's Park. We were properly taken in. We were probably the only job offer they got. Beuker can talk round stats and figures all he wants but when anything to do with practical football was thrown at him he failed. Veldman is just like the team - a lost wee boy.

[Zanetti]

22 minutes ago, williebraveheart said:

I agree but seriously when you think about it if either Beuker or Veldman were any good at Alkmaar or Anderlecht they would not be at Queen's Park. We were properly taken in. We were probably the only job offer they got. Beuker can talk round stats and figures all he wants but when anything to do with practical football was thrown at him he failed. Veldman is just like the team - a lost wee boy.

I know our current form and performances are very frustrating but that's not quite true; Beuker was definitely successful during his time at AZ and had job offers from Germany when we hired him, and Anderlecht fans were very disappointed when Veldman left. Ajax also tried to tempt him back to work as a coach there but he chose us.

[kdyteejay]

1 hour ago, williebraveheart said:

I agree but seriously when you think about it if either Beuker or Veldman were any good at Alkmaar or Anderlecht they would not be at Queen's Park. We were properly taken in. We were probably the only job offer they got. Beuker can talk round stats and figures all he wants but when anything to do with practical football was thrown at him he failed. Veldman is just like the team - a lost wee boy.

Just get decent defenders and you’ll be fine. The football you guys played was easy on the eyes. Good luck for the rest of the season.

[Bring Your Own Socks]

3 hours ago, Zanetti said:

I know our current form and performances are very frustrating but that's not quite true; Beuker was definitely successful during his time at AZ and had job offers from Germany when we hired him, and Anderlecht fans were very disappointed when Veldman left. Ajax also tried to tempt him back to work as a coach there but he chose us.

You've met the guy so I can't argue but for most clubs in football the definition of success is winning things. Whether verbally or in written reports, his repeated measurement of success is the number of minutes played by his proteges. It's actually very difficult trying to get hard facts about the guy which is odd given in our press release on his arrival he was credited with 15 years at AZ but from what I've read only the last 8 were in his Sporting Director role. Which funnily enough is close to the "seven years" I was told by a director of the club it took him to reach his peak at AZ, which was performance-measured as 42% of game time by the CIES model (or 48%if you believe Dempster). 

This Wiki page on AZ and the 8 year window above suggests he started this role in 2013 but the youth development started showing talent in 2019. I'm pretty certain if we do a straw poll around the stand on Saturday and asked folks if they would be okay waiting 6 years for our Universe to get the dent he spoke about, the second word would be mostly "off".

AZ Alkmaar - Wikipedia

I do wonder if all this "long term project" talk has tricked the minds of some players that there's no urgency to anything and every Saturday is just another learning day.

Oh, and by the way, most of these homegrown youngsters coming through now in Young QP have been on our programme long before Beuker was around. That other famous Dutchman, Gardner Speirs, had a say in this too. I'm sure Beuker has added something but he's not exactly had to start from scratch.

[Alert Mongoose]

I'd appreciate if you didn’t mention that team, please.

[Spider1975]

14 hours ago, kdyteejay said:

Just get decent defenders and you’ll be fine. The football you guys played was easy on the eyes. Good luck for the rest of the season.

Spot on.  After watching the highlights the inability to either; 

a) challenge for high balls (any of the CB's),

b) stop crosses at source, (McPherson and Robson), or

c) track back and defend the back post, (Robson and Thomas)

is/are all just basic stuff

[Granny Danger]

On 30/09/2023 at 15:04, Granny Danger said:

Christ that’s some marking.

Just seen the Queens goal again and as I thought at the time our marking was horrendous.  United players running towards the goal but no one paying attention to where Thomson was.

[Bring Your Own Socks]

13 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Just seen the Queens goal again and as I thought at the time our marking was horrendous.  United players running towards the goal but no one paying attention to where Thomson was.

Fortunately for United the other 89 minutes were better.

[Granny Danger]

35 minutes ago, Bring Your Own Socks said:

Fortunately for United the other 89 minutes were better.

In truth we created chances in the next 30-35 minutes after your goal but didn’t capitalise.  If Watt hadn’t scored I think he would have been in for a lot of criticism for the chances he squandered in that period.

 

[Hampden Diehard]

Had my first ever roll and mince in the Strath Bar and was offered (and took) a second. Magnificent. Then we go a goal up in a minute. What a day, I thought. Can it get any better? A big naw.

The day took a helluva a dive after that. Atrocious defending and we scorned a couple of decent chances. We did, though, continue to try to play football and looked not bad going forward but if we can't sort it out at the back, this is going to be torture.

[Spider1975]

5 hours ago, Hampden Diehard said:

but if we can't sort it out at the back, this is going to be torture.

It was torture towards the back end of last season; you could see that the players almost took it as an inevitability that they were going to concede, it was just a matter of time, and once they did, (usually pretty early on) the heads wen't down and it became a case of how many.  Up to the last game v Dundee, we'd pretty much stopped scoring too.  

Cant blame fatigue, mental or otherwise, this early on.

[an86]

1 hour ago, Spider1975 said:

It was torture towards the back end of last season; you could see that the players almost took it as an inevitability that they were going to concede, it was just a matter of time, and once they did, (usually pretty early on) the heads wen't down and it became a case of how many.  Up to the last game v Dundee, we'd pretty much stopped scoring too.  

Cant blame fatigue, mental or otherwise, this early on.

The limp towards the finishing line last season was still miles ahead of this. We were still in a lot of the games. This team doesn’t look like it could go to Somerset and scrap out a 0-0 or dig a 1-0 out of a must win like the Hamilton game at Stenny. Not going to rewrite history and pretend much of the final third of the season was good, but it wasn’t lifeless in the way that this is. 

[Bring Your Own Socks]

Here’s my best effort to explain the “overload” and why experienced coaches like Goodwin can spot and adapt to our weaknesses easily. A lot is being said about the high line of the defence, but the bigger problem for me is the narrow width of the back line. For at least 20 years now SFA approved coaching has worked along the lines of using the width of the pitch to gain advantage. Veldman’s style is to sacrifice the width in the defensive half to force the attacking team into the corners and away from the goal. The opponent is then restricted to cross balls which, as Beuker himself reported in the QP podcast recently, is statistically the most ineffective route to goal.

One of the critical elements for this to work is the co-ordination along each wing between front and back. Basically, the two players should be on a rod and sliding forwards and backwards in unison. And that takes a long time to get used to. It’s the reason why Veldman decided to split up a good partnership in Robson and Thomas because the right side of the pitch was very weak. So he’s made a whole into two halves to accommodate new players and now neither side is very efficient.

The Second Goal

Thomas, an attacker whose mind is looking for an outball and some space to run forward,  is almost at the halfway line and his buddy, McPherson is at the 18 yard line and more central, which by Veldman’s book is his correct position. Both are misaligned according to the coach. Thomas starts to track his opponent but is some way behind.

 

Noticing his opponents progress and the space opening up, Thomas reacts and closes the gap but after an initial sprint slows down and is still behind his man. A huge space has now opened up behind the rest of the players and only Thomas and his man have seen it. 

 

At this point Thomas is the only one able to take up a disruptive defence but instead of sprinting into the void decides to jog behind his opponent. Maybe still hoping for that outball and a breakaway.

When the ball comes over, Thomas hasn’t closed the distance down and the attacker has time and space to concentrate on his finish. Goal!

The Third Goal

This goal shows even clearer how our guys are just not getting what Veldman is trying to achieve. As the play starts, with no press on the defender, the ball is going to the guy in the middle of the park. Loads of space, no press and all the time he needs to control, turn and play his pass. The three central QP players are all watching him and unaware of what is behind them. Note the blue line showing how close Thomas is to his man.

The guy being marked by Thomas heads into the space left by the ball watchers and at the same time Thomas decides to move in the other direction to close down the left back, even though he is marking someone already. QP are in defensive mode but Thomas decides to head up the pitch (because that’s how attackers think). The blue line is now a problem.

Also, note the position of Robson and Hepburn. Aligned as per the Veldman coaching book.

The long pass, and it is a good pass because of the time and space allowed, heads out wide to a player not even seen in the previous shot or this one (orange arrow). The guy that Thomas had has now ran into the centre of the pitch and McPherson now has a 1 v 2 to consider with his  two opponents twenty metres apart and moving at pace.

Note that by allowing that one good pass the entire midfield has been made redundant and Thomas is nowhere near the action on his side of the field.

 

McPherson elects to go to the ball and close down the attacker. Another defender starts to move across to block Thomas’ man. But with Robson and Hepburn still way up the pitch that now creates a 3v1 for United on the right side. And there’s a huge space to attack on the left. The retreating midfield is still miles away.

 

So with the winger now facing the goal and McPherson at best getting alongside him the attacker again has time and space to control the ball and make a good pass. The 3v1 overload is too much. Only 2 QP players (plus Ferrie) are in a defensive position with Robson and Spong late arrivals and facing the goal. Hepburn is so far out he doesn’t even make the picture. The three guys who were all nearest to the initial free pass are all cancelled. Goal!
 

 

I hope this helps others understand that in a very, very short period of time the QP players are being asked to forget everything they’ve been taught and adopt a system that is alien to them. More than ever in there lives they are just a cog and their success is dependant on those around them. And when those around them let them down, it’s very frustrating. And the frustration is starting to fester as demonstrated on Saturday by both Ferrie and Thomas. 

If you did chemistry at school you’ll remember that when doing an experiment you  only change one element at a time. If you change too much, you don’t know what worked and what didn’t. With so much change of personnel, on and off the pitch, Beuker must have thought this was a good time to get all the Change off the To-Do list. The inevitable chaos is with us. With the benefit of a lifetime working in the performance-driven Private Sector (PLCs at that) I know that Change has to be balanced with Time. This won’t be the last miserable Saturday for some while.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Bring Your Own Socks

[QP's in my DNA]

2 hours ago, Bring Your Own Socks said:

This won’t be the last miserable Saturday for some while.

Never a truer word !!!!!

BYOS has taken the time and effort to explain what we have all been watching every game since Veldman arrived.

Whilst we can all see it,,,,,,,,, Byos can see it,,,,,,,, and even Jim Goodwin could see it,,,,,,,,, now every manager in this league has also now seen it.

I bet we wouldn't beat either Arbroath or ICT if we played them this weekend.

This shambles we are watching every game now, is devoid of a leader on or off the pitch, devoid of a recognised pattern of play the players understand, and in this current squad, many of whom have come from "higher" league teams, they are playing like a group of wee boys who have been brow beaten into submission by a coach and his unworkable philosophy in the environment of current Scottish football.

Despite what we as fans wish for, given the current hierarchy and the man who pays all their wages, IMO Beuker is going nowhere anytime soon, after all does he not have a 10 year deal ? And neither is he likely to admit he's brought in a dud Dutchman as his first choice coach.

I reckon we are stuck with them both, and don't see Haughey intervening until it looks like we're in danger of relegation to L2 and the dreaded trapdoor.

As for the silent Dumpster and the Royal Box loving Blazers................don't get me started !!!!!!!

It's now glaringly obvious why Owen Coyle packed his bags.

[QP's in my DNA]

Apologies for this duplication, which I've just deleted. Social media in your 70's isn't easy 

Edited October 4, 2023 by QP's in my DNA
Duplicate post