All Time Top Scorers

[Quentin Taranbino]

I'm sure Clarke said there will be 3 games before the Euros so assuming McTominay plays in them all - he will go into Euros on 50 caps. Hanley and Armstrong both on 48 caps so could hit hall of fame in that window too.

Didn't Hanley have a 2 or 3 year exile from national team as well? I wonder how many caps be could have been on if he had been getting picked during that period

[Skyline Drifter]

47 minutes ago, Quentin Taranbino said:

I'm sure Clarke said there will be 3 games before the Euros so assuming McTominay plays in them all - he will go into Euros on 50 caps. Hanley and Armstrong both on 48 caps so could hit hall of fame in that window too.

Didn't Hanley have a 2 or 3 year exile from national team as well? I wonder how many caps be could have been on if he had been getting picked during that period

He wasn't really "exiled", he was mostly injured combined with not getting picked at club level when with Newcastle or Norwich in the Premier League. He played 2 games between November 2016 and March 2021. He lost his place when he wasn't getting any first team football at Newcastle, didn't immediately win it back when he moved on to Norwich and then spent most of 2018/19 injured. He also wasn't a regular for Norwich in their Premier League season 19/20 which was then Covid interrupted of course and he was injured for the rest of the season when football restarted. He wasn't fit again until October 2020. Stevie Clarke had taken over at Scotland in May 2019 but with Hanley not playing much for Norwich initially and then injured, didn't have the chance to select him until 2021. He's been pretty much ever present when fit since though.

So basically he had 27 caps by his 25th birthday, got 2 more in the next 4 years and has collected 19 more in the last two and a half years. If he'd been getting picked through that 4 year period he'd have at least 70 by now I imagine.

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

2 hours ago, Quentin Taranbino said:

I'm sure Clarke said there will be 3 games before the Euros so assuming McTominay plays in them all - he will go into Euros on 50 caps. Hanley and Armstrong both on 48 caps so could hit hall of fame in that window too.

Didn't Hanley have a 2 or 3 year exile from national team as well? I wonder how many caps be could have been on if he had been getting picked during that period

Surely it'll be 4?  2 in March, and 2 in June?

Perhaps the calendar is too condensed, but most sides play 2 or more friendlies ahead of normal summer Championships.

[2426255]

1 hour ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

Surely it'll be 4?  2 in March, and 2 in June?

Perhaps the calendar is too condensed, but most sides play 2 or more friendlies ahead of normal summer Championships.

John McGinn said three games to prepare for Germany's in Viaplay's post-match interview from the Norway game. It sounds like it's not yet certain though.

 

[velo army]

Have friendlies been counted in the totals? Caps have only recently (last couple of decades) counted for friendlies and they definitely weren't in Dalgleesh's (up ye MT ) and Law's career. I'm wondering if their goals were too.

[Gordopolis]

Not that it's essential, but it'd be quite nice to have more than one player in the squad on double figures for goals. I don't think we've had that this century apart from Miller and McFadden for a spell (possibly Steven Fletcher and Steven Naismith too? Though I think Fletcher was gone by the time Naismith got his 10th).

McGinn is obvs well into dbl figures on 18. Dykes is poised on 9, but hasn't really been a regular scorer for us this campaign (just the 1 vs that largely forgettable 2-1 WIN in Norway). McTominay on 8 could possibly be a better candidate to break the 10 barrier pre-Euros. After that, it's Ryan Christie, Che Adams and Stuart Armstrong all on 5, and unlikely to hit dbl figures any time soon.

As I say it'd just give the squad a bit more of a 'seasoned' feel about it, in the same was as having quite a few players approaching and beyond the 50 cap barrier has done.

[Virtual Insanity]

1 hour ago, velo army said:

Have friendlies been counted in the totals? Caps have only recently (last couple of decades) counted for friendlies and they definitely weren't in Dalgleesh's (up ye MT ) and Law's career. I'm wondering if their goals were too.

Dalglish's totals did include friendlies (including the Maradona match at Hampden in 79). Not sure if/when friendlies didn't count for international caps, would be interested to know, paging @craigkillie

[Skyline Drifter]

2 hours ago, velo army said:

Have friendlies been counted in the totals? Caps have only recently (last couple of decades) counted for friendlies and they definitely weren't in Dalgleesh's (up ye MT ) and Law's career. I'm wondering if their goals were too.

 

44 minutes ago, Virtual Insanity said:

Dalglish's totals did include friendlies (including the Maradona match at Hampden in 79). Not sure if/when friendlies didn't count for international caps, would be interested to know, paging @craigkillie

Physical caps weren't awarded for friendlies but friendly appearances are in all those totals.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Gordopolis said:

Not that it's essential, but it'd be quite nice to have more than one player in the squad on double figures for goals. I don't think we've had that this century apart from Miller and McFadden for a spell (possibly Steven Fletcher and Steven Naismith too? Though I think Fletcher was gone by the time Naismith got his 10th).

McGinn is obvs well into dbl figures on 18. Dykes is poised on 9, but hasn't really been a regular scorer for us this campaign (just the 1 vs that largely forgettable 2-1 WIN in Norway). McTominay on 8 could possibly be a better candidate to break the 10 barrier pre-Euros. After that, it's Ryan Christie, Che Adams and Stuart Armstrong all on 5, and unlikely to hit dbl figures any time soon.

As I say it'd just give the squad a bit more of a 'seasoned' feel about it, in the same was as having quite a few players approaching and beyond the 50 cap barrier has done.

Fletcher was never much of a scorer for Scotland. His figures, including that 'calendar year goals' record that McTominay matched but didn't beat, are vastly inflated by having scored two hat tricks against Gibraltar in 2015 in 6-1 and 6-0 wins. For context France beat them 14-0 the other night! If we want to have three or four players on double figure goals just arrange some friendlies against Gibraltar and San Marino. He scored 4 goals in 31 other appearances for us.

Very few players have a large number of goals for Scotland to be fair. It's something I was looking at a week or so back in context of Lyndon Dykes. We've only had 22 players make it to double figures in our entire history. And 7 of those got 10. Only 15 players have scored more than 10 goals for Scotland. I'm biased when it comes to Lyndon but as much as I rate him highly, he's not a particularly regular scorer, albeit his scoring rate has improved since he became the focus of attack for a club. All the more remarkable then that he's now joint 23rd in our all time scoring list and two more goals would put him 16th on his own!

Only 7 players have scored more than 15 goals for Scotland, McGinn's 18 has him 6th, one behind Ally McCoist. Beyond McCoist only Lawrie Reilly and Hughie Gallacher on 23 goals and Law & Dalglish on 30 goals lie beyond. The former two playing in an era where goals where much more plentiful (Gallacher got his 23 in just 20 games!). McGinn's 18 in 62 games is more less the same scoring rate as established strikers Miller, McCoist and Dalglish who were all, or at least the latter two, renowned goalscorers. A remarkable record for McGinn from midfield with (I think) just one penalty included, although again for balance, worth noting he has a hat trick against San Marino in his total.

Despite his current virtual "goal a game" scoring rate in this campaign, McTominay actually doesn't average anywhere close to as high for Scotland. I appreciate your suggestion he's more likely to break 10 than Dykes is partly based on his form this year and the fact he's probably more certain to play, or at least start, than Dykes, but Dykes has a better goals per game record than McTominay across his Scotland career. In fact Dykes' record of just under 1 in 3 with Scotland is broadly consistent with his records at QPR and Livingston where he's been central striker also but far better than his record at Queen of the South where he was more of a foil for Stephen Dobbie than the focus of attack. It's also broadly consistent with Messrs McGinn, Miller, McCoist and Dalglish in a Scotland shirt.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Skyline Drifter

[Monkey Tennis]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Fletcher was never much of a scorer for Scotland. His figures, including that 'calendar year goals' record that McTominay matched but didn't beat, are vastly inflated by having scored two hat tricks against Gibraltar in 2015 in 6-1 and 6-0 wins. For context France beat them 14-0 the other night! If we want to have three or four players on double figure goals just arrange some friendlies against Gibraltar and San Marino. He scored 4 goals in 31 other appearances for us.

Very few players have a large number of goals for Scotland to be fair. It's something I was looking at a week or so back in context of Lyndon Dykes. We've only had 22 players make it to double figures in our entire history. And 7 of those got 10. Only 15 players have scored more than 10 goals for Scotland. I'm biased when it comes to Lyndon but as much as I rate him highly, he's not a particularly regular scorer, albeit his scoring rate has improved since he became the focus of attack for a club. All the more remarkable then that he's now joint 23rd in our all time scoring list and two more goals would put him 16th on his own!

Only 7 players have scored more than 15 goals for Scotland, McGinn's 18 has him 6th, one behind Ally McCoist. Beyond McCoist only Lawrie Reilly and Hughie Gallacher on 23 goals and Law & Dalglish on 30 goals lie beyond. The former two playing in an era where goals where much more plentiful (Gallacher got his 23 in just 20 games!). McGinn's 18 in 62 games is more less the same scoring rate as established strikers Miller, McCoist and Dalglish who were all, or at least the latter two, renowned goalscorers. A remarkable record for McGinn from midfield with (I think) just one penalty included, although again for balance, worth noting he has a hat trick against San Marino in his total.

Despite his current virtual "goal a game" scoring rate in this campaign, McTominay actually doesn't average anywhere close to as high for Scotland. I appreciate your suggestion he's more likely to break 10 than Dykes is partly based on his form this year and the fact he's probably more certain to play, or at least start, than Dykes, but Dykes has a better goals per game record than McTominay across his Scotland career. In fact Dykes' record of just under 1 in 3 with Scotland is broadly consistent with his records at QPR and Livingston where he's been central striker also but far better than his record at Queen of the South where he was more of a foil for Stephen Dobbie than the focus of attack. It's also broadly consistent with Messrs McGinn, Miller, McCoist and Dalglish in a Scotland shirt.

You're overstating Dykes' role alongside Dobbie.

You 'd have been disappointed if I'd let it go. 

 

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, Virtual Insanity said:

Dalglish's totals did include friendlies (including the Maradona match at Hampden in 79). Not sure if/when friendlies didn't count for international caps, would be interested to know, paging @craigkillie

For a long time, actual physical caps were only awarded for Home Internationals.  Scottish players who appeared in 50s World Cup didn't even get them for these games.  

That good Gary Imlach book a few years back, sparked a drive to change things retrospectively.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Monkey Tennis

[No_Problemo]

2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Fletcher was never much of a scorer for Scotland. His figures, including that 'calendar year goals' record that McTominay matched but didn't beat, are vastly inflated by having scored two hat tricks against Gibraltar in 2015 in 6-1 and 6-0 wins. For context France beat them 14-0 the other night! If we want to have three or four players on double figure goals just arrange some friendlies against Gibraltar and San Marino. He scored 4 goals in 31 other appearances for us.

Very few players have a large number of goals for Scotland to be fair. It's something I was looking at a week or so back in context of Lyndon Dykes. We've only had 22 players make it to double figures in our entire history. And 7 of those got 10. Only 15 players have scored more than 10 goals for Scotland. I'm biased when it comes to Lyndon but as much as I rate him highly, he's not a particularly regular scorer, albeit his scoring rate has improved since he became the focus of attack for a club. All the more remarkable then that he's now joint 23rd in our all time scoring list and two more goals would put him 16th on his own!

Only 7 players have scored more than 15 goals for Scotland, McGinn's 18 has him 6th, one behind Ally McCoist. Beyond McCoist only Lawrie Reilly and Hughie Gallacher on 23 goals and Law & Dalglish on 30 goals lie beyond. The former two playing in an era where goals where much more plentiful (Gallacher got his 23 in just 20 games!). McGinn's 18 in 62 games is more less the same scoring rate as established strikers Miller, McCoist and Dalglish who were all, or at least the latter two, renowned goalscorers. A remarkable record for McGinn from midfield with (I think) just one penalty included, although again for balance, worth noting he has a hat trick against San Marino in his total.

Despite his current virtual "goal a game" scoring rate in this campaign, McTominay actually doesn't average anywhere close to as high for Scotland. I appreciate your suggestion he's more likely to break 10 than Dykes is partly based on his form this year and the fact he's probably more certain to play, or at least start, than Dykes, but Dykes has a better goals per game record than McTominay across his Scotland career. In fact Dykes' record of just under 1 in 3 with Scotland is broadly consistent with his records at QPR and Livingston where he's been central striker also but far better than his record at Queen of the South where he was more of a foil for Stephen Dobbie than the focus of attack. It's also broadly consistent with Messrs McGinn, Miller, McCoist and Dalglish in a Scotland shirt.

Of McTominay’s 48 though, 13 appearances were at centre back. 

So, playing at central midfield he has seven goals in twenty five appearances - three of those appearances being from the bench. 

[Skyline Drifter]

16 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

Of McTominay’s 48 though, 13 appearances were at centre back. 

So, playing at central midfield he has seven goals in twenty five appearances - three of those appearances being from the bench. 

Fair point. For balance though, he scored twice from the bench against Cyprus. 5 goals in 22 starts then. Still a lower scoring rate than Dykes or McGinn (although for further balance Dykes got two against Ukraine from the bench too I think). He also has one penalty in his total (in Austria) and missed one v Israel.

[Skyline Drifter]

52 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

You're overstating Dykes' role alongside Dobbie.

You 'd have been disappointed if I'd let it go. 

 

I'm not. But I'm aware you're clueless on this though so I'll let it go.

[No_Problemo]

1 minute ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Fair point. For balance though, he scored twice from the bench against Cyprus. 5 goals in 22 starts then. Still a lower scoring rate than Dykes or McGinn (although for further balance Dykes got two against Ukraine from the bench too I think). He also has one penalty in his total (in Austria) and missed one v Israel.

Yeah, not too far off Dykes or McGinn so it’ll be interesting going into the next couple of campaigns.

Looking back at Dykes goalscoring record for us, it does seem very streaky so hopefully the next one begins at the Euros!

 

[Skyline Drifter]

1 minute ago, No_Problemo said:

Yeah, not too far off Dykes or McGinn so it’ll be interesting going into the next couple of campaigns.

Looking back at Dykes goalscoring record for us, it does seem very streaky so hopefully the next one begins at the Euros!

 

I haven't checked the numbers but I assume more of Dykes caps have come as a sub than McTominay's have also. Since Adams appeared in the set up he's sometimes come off the bench to replace him rather than started. They've rarely started together.

[Tartan Blood]

I do think just looking at cap totals can be very misleading, as getting 6 minutes at the end of a match still counts towards a cap total.

So, the likes of Miller probably started the majority of his games, and was up front for all of them.

I've no idea if Dalglish was much of a sub at the beginning or end of his career, but I do know he wasn't always played as an out and out centre forward. So the 30 goals may be more impressive than it seems on the surface. 

I wonder how McGinn will be viewed 40 years from now. Will people know he isn't a striker? Or that he played as a deep lying midfielder for the his first 20+ caps?

[No_Problemo]

4 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I haven't checked the numbers but I assume more of Dykes caps have come as a sub than McTominay's have also. Since Adams appeared in the set up he's sometimes come off the bench to replace him rather than started. They've rarely started together.

Twenty six in the starting eleven for Lyndon, according to Transfermarkt. 

[AMMjag]

On 20/11/2023 at 13:19, Scotty Tunbridge said:

The St Mirren Twitter admin would have a busy summer with the amount of ex-buddy John Mcginn posts.

My mate reminded me at the pub the other night that I'd played a few games for Scotstoun Boys Club when I was at school.

"Oh aye, I completely forgot about that."

I imagine that's how John McGinn feels about St Mirren.

 

[BB_Bino]

11 hours ago, Quentin Taranbino said:

I'm sure Clarke said there will be 3 games before the Euros

Someone at the SFA told BBC Sportsound there will be 4. 2 in each window and they were also confident that 1 will be at home and the other will be away in both windows