All Time Top Scorers

[Ewanandmoreagain]

45 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I haven't checked the numbers but I assume more of Dykes caps have come as a sub than McTominay's have also. Since Adams appeared in the set up he's sometimes come off the bench to replace him rather than started. They've rarely started together.

We have learned that does not really work ! ?

[Gordopolis]

5 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Fletcher was never much of a scorer for Scotland. His figures, including that 'calendar year goals' record that McTominay matched but didn't beat, are vastly inflated by having scored two hat tricks against Gibraltar in 2015 in 6-1 and 6-0 wins. For context France beat them 14-0 the other night! If we want to have three or four players on double figure goals just arrange some friendlies against Gibraltar and San Marino. He scored 4 goals in 31 other appearances for us.

Very few players have a large number of goals for Scotland to be fair. It's something I was looking at a week or so back in context of Lyndon Dykes. We've only had 22 players make it to double figures in our entire history. And 7 of those got 10. Only 15 players have scored more than 10 goals for Scotland. I'm biased when it comes to Lyndon but as much as I rate him highly, he's not a particularly regular scorer, albeit his scoring rate has improved since he became the focus of attack for a club. All the more remarkable then that he's now joint 23rd in our all time scoring list and two more goals would put him 16th on his own!

Only 7 players have scored more than 15 goals for Scotland, McGinn's 18 has him 6th, one behind Ally McCoist. Beyond McCoist only Lawrie Reilly and Hughie Gallacher on 23 goals and Law & Dalglish on 30 goals lie beyond. The former two playing in an era where goals where much more plentiful (Gallacher got his 23 in just 20 games!). McGinn's 18 in 62 games is more less the same scoring rate as established strikers Miller, McCoist and Dalglish who were all, or at least the latter two, renowned goalscorers. A remarkable record for McGinn from midfield with (I think) just one penalty included, although again for balance, worth noting he has a hat trick against San Marino in his total.

Despite his current virtual "goal a game" scoring rate in this campaign, McTominay actually doesn't average anywhere close to as high for Scotland. I appreciate your suggestion he's more likely to break 10 than Dykes is partly based on his form this year and the fact he's probably more certain to play, or at least start, than Dykes, but Dykes has a better goals per game record than McTominay across his Scotland career. In fact Dykes' record of just under 1 in 3 with Scotland is broadly consistent with his records at QPR and Livingston where he's been central striker also but far better than his record at Queen of the South where he was more of a foil for Stephen Dobbie than the focus of attack. It's also broadly consistent with Messrs McGinn, Miller, McCoist and Dalglish in a Scotland shirt.

Pretty much agree with all that and appreciate the further analysis.

Yeah Fletcher/Naismith was really just coincidental - they never really felt like "our front 2" at any point. And as you say, Fletcher was never really a great goalscoring threat.

Miller and McFadden felt - for a year or two around the 2008 campaign - like a credible and reasonably potent front two who often played together. Boyd was coming thru at the same time and started well for us (before the well documented fall out with George Burley). There's never been another time I have felt that we were well stocked for proven international goalscorers in the forward dept (I was a bit too young to appreciate McCoist & MoJo).

[Skyline Drifter]

38 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

Pretty much agree with all that and appreciate the further analysis.

Yeah Fletcher/Naismith was really just coincidental - they never really felt like "our front 2" at any point. And as you say, Fletcher was never really a great goalscoring threat.

Miller and McFadden felt - for a year or two around the 2008 campaign - like a credible and reasonably potent front two who often played together. Boyd was coming thru at the same time and started well for us (before the well documented fall out with George Burley). There's never been another time I have felt that we were well stocked for proven international goalscorers in the forward dept (I was a bit too young to appreciate McCoist & MoJo).

I don't think I ever thought any of those other than the last two were particularly competent international strikers. McFadden was a good attacking player but not an out and out forward.

I am old enough to remember Johnston and McCoist, and indeed the back end of Dalglish and Jordan before that. Johnston was the last Scottish forward I felt was genuinely a top quality international striker, albeit it didn't last all that long. McCoist was competent but never quite looked the prolific striker he was at club level. To be fair, for a period Kevin Gallacher also looked like a very good international striker. I had high hopes for Duncan Ferguson but his outings for Scotland before he chucked it were underwhelming.

One of the surprising things I found when looking at the goals was that Joe Jordan, despite notoriously scoring at three different World Cup Finals, and being a feared and renowned forward, only actually scored 11 times for Scotland. They just seem to have included an awful lot of high profile ones.

[Ewanandmoreagain]

M*J* scored in how many consecutive games he scored in

before he threw his toys out the pram.

He was one of the brilliant Scottish headers of the ball eg Lawman , Gilzean , Jordan , Black

 

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

One of the surprising things I found when looking at the goals was that Joe Jordan, despite notoriously scoring at three different World Cup Finals, and being a feared and renowned forward, only actually scored 11 times for Scotland. They just seem to have included an awful lot of high profile ones.

Yip, that's an absolute feature with Jordan.

He scored at three World Cups and he scored vital goals to get us to World Cups, but his overall goalscoring record wasn't great at all.  

His goals generally mattered when they arrived, as did a handball on one occasion.

[Molotov]

33 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yip, that's an absolute feature with Jordan.

He scored at three World Cups and he scored vital goals to get us to World Cups, but his overall goalscoring record wasn't great at all.  

His goals generally mattered when they arrived, as did a handball on one occasion.

Joe Jordan never was a prolific scorer in club football. His goal to game ratio at international level sort of mirrored his club record.

Fearsome competitor and very patriotic! 

[Molotov]

Always felt Andy Gray never got the international recognition at a time when he was carving up the English top flight with Villa as his manager Ron Saunders was a total kunt and had him withdrawn at key times. 

“Gray's relationship with Saunders was somewhat more difficult, and was epitomised by one night in 1977. 

The Professional Footballers' Association were holding their annual awards dinner. Gray, who finished the season with 25 goals, knew that he had made history. Not only would he be named the PFA Young Player of the Year, he was also set to receive the most prestigious individual honour in the English game - the PFA Players' Player of the Year award. 

No man had ever won the two awards in the same season; no man would repeat the feat for 20 years. It should have been one of the happiest nights of his life. Instead, it was one of the most painful. 

As champagne corks popped and glasses were raised in his name in London, Gray sat in his front room. Saunders had refused him permission to travel to the ceremony, insisting the journey might aggravate the injury Gray was carrying.“

25 top flight goals and never made it to Argentina! 

Also he was sent off in a game against Czech Republic which hampered his international career.

More details here:

https://scotlandepistles.com/2015/11/30/happy-birthday-andy-gray/

[craigkillie]

Given everything we know about Gray, it's reasonable to assume Saunders might not have been the only one in the wrong.

[Gordopolis]

30 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Given everything we know about Gray, it's reasonable to assume Saunders might not have been the only one in the wrong.

For completely different reasons tho.

[Monkey Tennis]

8 hours ago, Molotov said:

 

Also he was sent off in a game against Czech Republic which hampered his international career.

P&B's Slovakian community is in open revolt over this.

[Monkey Tennis]

8 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Given everything we know about Gray, it's reasonable to assume Saunders might not have been the only one in the wrong.

Ron Saunders was a notoriously difficult old bugger.

[Molotov]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Ron Saunders was a notoriously difficult old bugger.

Quite funny that he resigned when Villa were in the quarter finals of the European cup which they ended up winning. 
Andy Gray goes into more details surrounding their manager-player relationship in his autobiography. Saunders fcuked his international career to keep him “fresh” for club duty. He withdrew Gray from the Scotland 1977 tour to South America.

Gray had to leave Villa as he could no longer play for Saunders. 

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/you-problem-shock-outburst-forced-20259213

Andy Gray spoke well of him when Saunders passed away but there was a great deal of resentment when he was a player with Villa back then. 

[Bully Wee Villa]

It was the style at the time. Similar to how Brian Clough operated. I think he was always terrified someone would end up "bigger than the club" so would go out of his way to puncture any egos and fell out with a fair few players. It would never work nowadays, but you can't argue with the success he had taking us from the Second Division to the league title via two League Cups in seven years.

That said, if anyone is suggesting that Ally MacLeod decided his squads based on attendance or otherwise at awards ceremonies that would make him an idiot. I'm sure that wasn't the case.

[Molotov]

9 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Given everything we know about Gray, it's reasonable to assume Saunders might not have been the only one in the wrong.

Everything? Is this about his more recent TV career?

What I’m aware of is he made sexist comments which resulted in his sacking from Sky.

What else are you referring to?

Jamie Carragher spat at a 14 year old child yet is allowed to continue his Sky career after a brief suspension. 
 

 

[Molotov]

11 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

That said, if anyone is suggesting that Ally MacLeod decided his squads based on attendance or otherwise at awards ceremonies that would make him an idiot. I'm sure that wasn't the case.

Who has suggested that? Not me. 

Saunders took Gray off on the last Villa game before Scotland went on 1977 tour.

For Argentina 78 Ally McLeod took Derek Johnstone and Joe Harper. Wrong choice in my opinion. 
 

[Ewanandmoreagain]

11 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yip, that's an absolute feature with Jordan.

He scored at three World Cups and he scored vital goals to get us to World Cups, but his overall goalscoring record wasn't great at all.  

His goals generally mattered when they arrived, as did a handball on one occasion.

Karma got us with the last one

[Ewanandmoreagain]

29 minutes ago, Molotov said:

Who has suggested that? Not me. 

Saunders took Gray off on the last Villa game before Scotland went on 1977 tour.

For Argentina 78 Ally McLeod took Derek Johnstone and Joe Harper. Wrong choice in my opinion. 
 

It was not really the forwards that were the problem in 1978 , imho

[Molotov]

12 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

It was not really the forwards that were the problem in 1978 , imho

Agreed. Certainly fault lies with the manager and the SFA with exceedingly poor preparation with respect other teams, hotels, etc and player choices. 
Ally was very loyal to players who were out of form (Rioch and Masson) and injured (eg “McQueen will be ready for the quarters/semis!”)
Danny McGrain was a massive loss at right back. 

What is hugely frustrating from an SFA perspective is that the same lack of preparation relating to accommodation, travel and training facilities was repeated again in 1986.
 

Plus we had a manager in Fergie who let club loyalties and player personalities decide who would travel and play. 

I think the players Scotland had to choose from for 78, 82 and 86 were the best we have ever had. 

[Ewanandmoreagain]

1 hour ago, Molotov said:

Agreed. Certainly fault lies with the manager and the SFA with exceedingly poor preparation with respect other teams, hotels, etc and player choices. 
Ally was very loyal to players who were out of form (Rioch and Masson) and injured (eg “McQueen will be ready for the quarters/semis!”)
Danny McGrain was a massive loss at right back. 

What is hugely frustrating from an SFA perspective is that the same lack of preparation relating to accommodation, travel and training facilities was repeated again in 1986.
 

Plus we had a manager in Fergie who let club loyalties and player personalities decide who would travel and play. 

I think the players Scotland had to choose from for 78, 82 and 86 were the best we have ever had. 

Sorry, I do not see how Sir Fergie let that happen.

H*ns*n did not go.

K.D. withdrew as a result

 

1978 - apparently it was not a              harmonious squad.

( per Stewart Kennedy )

 

 

Best Players - and 1974

Lorimer ,  Bremner ,  Hay , Hutchison.

Willie Morgan

Holton AND  Martin Buchan

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Ewanandmoreagain

[Monkey Tennis]

7 hours ago, Molotov said:

Ally was very loyal to players who were out of form (Rioch and Masson) and injured (eg “McQueen will be ready for the quarters/semis!”)
 

There were no quarter or semi finals in 1978.

God, I love pointless pedantry.