Lewis Ferguson

[Skyline Drifter]

11 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

I think these are fair enough points, other than the “less we see of him, the better he gets” part as I don’t think anyone is saying he outstanding. He is just better than the other options, and offers something we don’t actually have in the squad right now. 

Personally, I would find it disappointing if Ferguson was replaced with another defender. That would leave us with four players for the attacking areas, but with McTominay especially potentially moving deeper in some games. You wouldn’t be surprised if three of those four players started either so that only leaves you with Armstrong to change things in those areas. 

 

Four players? Do you mean specifically four 'midfielders'? McTominay, McGinn, Christie and Armstrong? I mean obviously there's Adams, Dykes and Shankland too.

Again, I don't disagree. I don't think we particularly need six centre backs or a 3rd left back. If Hanley makes it then Hanley, Hendrie, Tierney backed up by Porteous, McKenna and one of Cooper / Souttar is enough with Tierney able to move left if Robertson has an issue and indeed Hickey able to switch sides assuming he makes it also. I wouldn't be taking both Souttar and Cooper, nor Taylor. I'd prefer a Fraser/Gauld/Cairney. I just wouldn't be astonished if Clarke remains loyal as far as possible to his established squad (which is the squad picked for the March get together add McGregor, Hickey, Jack and potentially Jacob Brown, and obviously including Hanley and McKenna who pulled out of it). If squad size remains 23 I'm not particularly expecting to see a left field pick outwith that.

If squad goes to 26, and especially if Hanley and maybe Hickey or Patterson don't make it then there are more opportunities there for change.

[craigkillie]

Isn't Cairney a sitting midfielder who would just be a worse version of at least four guys we already have in that position (McGregor, Gilmour, McLean, Christie)?

[Skyline Drifter]

10 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Isn't Cairney a sitting midfielder who would just be a worse version of at least four guys we already have in that position (McGregor, Gilmour, McLean, Christie)?

Wouldn't have described him as a sitting midfielder. I think he's a wee bit more attacking than that, though probably not as much as Ferguson.

I mean he's obviously a downgrade on players already in the squad. If he wasn't then he'd be in the squad and they wouldn't. But if we're looking for a direct midfield replacement for Ferguson he's worth at least throwing a name into a conversation. He's a more direct replacement in terms of playing centrally than Fraser is.

[2426255]

Historically speaking,

Ryan Jack has only ever missed squads because of injury. Lewis Ferguson receives reduced gametime because Scott McTominay and John McGinn have his attacking role covered.

The last time Fergie missed a squad (Sep-22) Ryan Fraser, David Turnbull, Jacob Brown and Ryan Jack were called up. The last time Fergie and Jack were unavailable at the same time Allan Campbell was called into a squad that already contained Turnbull and Brown. (Armenia, Ireland - Jun-22).

A lot of time has passed since 2022. The team and Ferguson's role have evolved. I think the simplest, most obvious solution is Ryan Jack if he can prove his fitness - he doesn't need loads of game time as he's still a core member and benefits from Clarke's loyalty system.

[Butters Scotch]

It isn't a case of the "less we see the better he gets" with Fraser, he genuinely is the best available option we have to bring into the squad. If you can't see that then I don't know what to say. 

If Clarke decides to bring in a Ryan Jack or another CB then it's clear what the game plan will be and will be just as fun as the last euros we were at. 

[2426255]

2 hours ago, Butters Scotch said:

It isn't a case of the "less we see the better he gets" with Fraser, he genuinely is the best available option we have to bring into the squad. If you can't see that then I don't know what to say. 

If Clarke decides to bring in a Ryan Jack or another CB then it's clear what the game plan will be and will be just as fun as the last euros we were at. 

You're fixating again SD.

Ryan Fraser isn't going to make or break our tournament this summer. He was in the Euro-2020 squad that didn't match your expectations for fun, was he not?

[Butters Scotch]

8 hours ago, 2426255 said:

You're fixating again SD.

Ryan Fraser isn't going to make or break our tournament this summer. He was in the Euro-2020 squad that didn't match your expectations for fun, was he not?

Think you are completely missing the point here which is no surprise.

Ryan Fraser or a player similar to the qualities he has could make a big difference to any game. 

We are more likely to be drawing or losing in each of the three games so we need more creative players in my opinion. 

[craigkillie]

I'd say we're absolutely certain to be drawing at some point in all three games.

[2426255]

5 hours ago, Butters Scotch said:

Think you are completely missing the point here which is no surprise.

Ryan Fraser or a player similar to the qualities he has could make a big difference to any game. 

We are more likely to be drawing or losing in each of the three games so we need more creative players in my opinion. 

You want to replace Lewis Ferguson with a player who is able to give us an option as a substitute, someone who can help us get back in the game if we're chasing it (needing a goal) - is that correct?

Edited April 18 by 2426255

[Butters Scotch]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

You want to replace Lewis Ferguson with a player who is able to give us an option as a substitute, someone who can help us get back in the game if we're chasing it (needing a goal) - is that correct?

Took you a while to get it 

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 hour ago, Butters Scotch said:

Took you a while to get it 

On that i was reading that Doak isn't far away from playing and is back in full training.

Very unlikely hes not going to have much time in matches for his club before the end of the season. But would be an exciting addition to the squad.

[Skyline Drifter]

4 hours ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

On that i was reading that Doak isn't far away from playing and is back in full training.

Very unlikely hes not going to have much time in matches for his club before the end of the season. But would be an exciting addition to the squad.

According to an article I read from monday he's started running. He's not in full training yet and they are hoping he might get on the pitch for the 18s before end of season. 

[Butters Scotch]

5 hours ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

On that i was reading that Doak isn't far away from playing and is back in full training.

Very unlikely hes not going to have much time in matches for his club before the end of the season. But would be an exciting addition to the squad.

Would love to see him in if he's doing well or getting minutes for Liverpool but can't see him becoming anywhere close to getting into the squad under Clarke. It'll be at least another year before he selects him 

[2426255]

7 hours ago, Butters Scotch said:

Took you a while to get it 

That's fine. All of the players suggested to replace Ferguson have only previously performed the attacking or deep midfield role for Scotland, not both which Ferguson was able to do. We have a lot of cover for both roles so maybe you'll get your wish, but I still think Ryan Jack will be first on the list if he can prove his fitness.  

Quote

In the midfield area, there are seven this time. Obviously, Ryan (Jack) and Callum (McGregor) would be strong candidates to join that, but I can’t see me taking nine midfield players. So that will be another decision for me to make.

Steve Clarke, Mar-24

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/24181054.scotland-manager-set-disappoint-five-euro-2024-hopefuls/

Armstrong (5) and McLean (5) were the midfielders most often brought on when we were chasing the game, not Ferguson (3) which I found quite surprising and they haven't dropped out of the squad as it stands. 

[Butters Scotch]

8 hours ago, 2426255 said:

That's fine. All of the players suggested to replace Ferguson have only previously performed the attacking or deep midfield role for Scotland, not both which Ferguson was able to do. We have a lot of cover for both roles so maybe you'll get your wish, but I still think Ryan Jack will be first on the list if he can prove his fitness.  

 

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/24181054.scotland-manager-set-disappoint-five-euro-2024-hopefuls/

Armstrong (5) and McLean (5) were the midfielders most often brought on when we were chasing the game, not Ferguson (3) which I found quite surprising and they haven't dropped out of the squad as it stands. 

We have enough CM's who have played deep for their clubs especially (even John McGinn), we don't need another in Ryan Jack ffs. 

If he doesn't bring in one pacey wide player then its very strange, it's the one area of the team we don't have anything like it. 

What heppens if plan A/B doesn't work? (ie playing very narrow relying on our wing backs for width) 

[2426255]

3 hours ago, Butters Scotch said:

What heppens if plan A/B doesn't work? (ie playing very narrow relying on our wing backs for width) 

We don't play narrow and leave the wing-backs to it for width. Our primary route to victory are the wide areas - they're key to how we attack. Our attacking midfielders are always involved in those attacks in wide areas. They work with the wing backs and central midfielders to get into the zones depicted below. We attack via those routes as a team - not just via the wing-backs or any individual player.

Playing with a back-3 facilitates the wide attacks, it's not just a negative defensive tactic - it's the platform to build our wide attacks. In the last camp that primarily involved Tierney, Robertson, McTominay and Christie on the left as well as Patterson, McGinn and Gilmour with help from Dykes, Hendry and Porteous on the right.

[Butters Scotch]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

We don't play narrow and leave the wing-backs to it for width. Our primary route to victory are the wide areas - they're key to how we attack. Our attacking midfielders are always involved in those attacks in wide areas. They work with the wing backs and central midfielders to get into the zones depicted below. We attack via those routes as a team - not just via the wing-backs or any individual player.

Playing with a back-3 facilitates the wide attacks, it's not just a negative defensive tactic - it's the platform to build our wide attacks. In the last camp that primarily involved Tierney, Robertson, McTominay and Christie on the left as well as Patterson, McGinn and Gilmour with help from Dykes, Hendry and Porteous on the right.

Think you're just being obtuse for the sake of it again.

Our wing backs are mainly our wide players hence why we play a 3-5-2 system, they're expected to get up the pitch to get balls into the box. Literally our two goals against Spain were from full backs crossing from the wide areas, first goal agaisnt Cyprus was a cross from Robertson etc etc.

Yes we have AM's that also go to wider areas of the pitch that link up with the wing backs, CF etc

I was referring to not playing with any wingers who can be given the ball out wide, take on a full back and cross the ball quickly into the box which we don't do as we don't have these tricky winger types in the squad.

Our approach at times is often laboured and one dimensional patterns of play. What happens when this doesn't work out as expected as we've seen plenty of times? Can we swtich to a 4-3-3 let's say? I don't think we can as we don't have wingers in the squad which is the point i'm making.

[2426255]

7 hours ago, Butters Scotch said:

Can we swtich to a 4-3-3 let's say? I don't think we can as we don't have wingers in the squad which is the point i'm making.

Why can't we? We have previously. From Norway to Spain & Georgia to Rep of Ireland, Ukraine and of course Northern Ireland - the source of this. We've been successful too in changing the game on several occasions. The attacking midfielders in particular have directly contributed via wide areas. Christie (Ireland). Armstrong, McGinn and McLean (Norway) and Armstrong (Georgia).

I like Fraser, I'd have him in the squad, but we do have guys who can change the course of a game via wide areas even without Ferguson. That's before considering what you lose in the form of Tierney and Robertson. Not the be all and end all for me.

Edited April 19 by 2426255

[Butters Scotch]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Why can't we? We have previously. From Norway to Spain & Georgia to Rep of Ireland, Ukraine and of course Northern Ireland - the source of this. We've been successful too in changing the game on several occasions.

The attacking midfielders in particular have directly contributed via wide areas. Think Christie v Ireland. Armstrong, McGinn and McLean v Norway and Armstrong v Georgia.

I like Fraser, I'd have him in the squad, but we do have guys who can change the course of a game via wide areas even without Ferguson. That's before considering what you lose in the form of Tierney and Robertson.

Not the be all and end all for me.

All the players you mention are a completely different player to Fraser and you are giving a point of view that has little reference to the one I am making and it's getting tedious again going round in circles.

[2426255]

11 hours ago, Butters Scotch said:

All the players you mention are a completely different player to Fraser and you are giving a point of view that has little reference to the one I am making

Strange hill for you to die on Sand Dancer. I've given you fair evidence why Ryan Fraser hasn't been included recently even when the intention was to use a back-4 (Nov-23), how we have been successful without Fraser using a back-4 via wide areas with balls into the box while chasing a goal. There's always that question of how Robertson and Tierney fit into all that too and is the cost of that worth it to bring on a guy like Fraser?

Zoom out mate and think about what you're saying. Ryan Fraser isn't going to make or break our Euro's, is he now? come on SD - you're zoned in on this one.