Trapdoor to Hell

[BFTD]

I keep banging on about this, but the answer is a bigger bottom tier and more relegation to/promotion from the Lowland/Highland leagues. Nobody's going to be happy about backing a system where you're highly unlikely to ever return from a demotion.

Regardless, any change will require admission of Celtgers reserves, so none of this matters.

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, rockson said:

That could mean two out of ten clubs (twenty percent of them - in other words a fifth) being relegated. I submit that is a mad proposal.  Surley no division in the world relegates a fifth of its clubs.

Don't have to look very far. Its one of the divisions you are in.

[rockson]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Don't have to look very far. Its one of the divisions you are in.

Aye. Fair enough. (I'd managed to forget the play-offs could do that. Blanked it out of my memory.)

Edited 17 hours ago by rockson

[DiegoDiego]

11 hours ago, Tenkay said:

I know nobody on here wants to see East Kilbride or Caley Braves in the league it seems,  but if they win the league they'll have earned their place.

Highland league champs (and club 42) beg to differ.

1 hour ago, rockson said:

That could mean two out of ten clubs (twenty percent of them - in other words a fifth) being relegated. I submit that is a mad proposal.  Surley no division in the world relegates a fifth of its clubs.

Thought I'd fact check this, started alphabetically and saw that the ten-club Albanian top flight relegates two and third bottom enters a relegation play off.

Edited 16 hours ago by DiegoDiego

[The Moonster]

When the Lowland League get rid of B teams and the Highland League actually take promotion seriously we can have a discussion about opening up more relegation places. 

[doulikefish]

8 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

When the Lowland League get rid of B teams and the Highland League actually take promotion seriously we can have a discussion about opening up more relegation places. 

This is the correct answer 

[Moorie]

13 hours ago, BFTD said:

I keep banging on about this, but the answer is a bigger bottom tier and more relegation to/promotion from the Lowland/Highland leagues. Nobody's going to be happy about backing a system where you're highly unlikely to ever return from a demotion.

Regardless, any change will require admission of Celtgers reserves, so none of this matters.

For a HL stand point it wouldn’t work. Only 3/4 would be interested in going up. Of course if more teams go down from the league more will be eager to go back up  

[BFTD]

7 minutes ago, Moorie said:

For a HL stand point it wouldn’t work. Only 3/4 would be interested in going up. Of course if more teams go down from the league more will be eager to go back up  

Folk keep saying that - it must be some league. You'd think Elgin might be interested in a return to the Highland glory days after nearly a quarter of a century sitting in the bottom half of League Two, but their fans on here usually deny that.

Funny that the only League Two side to have been relegated to it so far have been camped out at the top of the table ever since, even after the parachute payments stopped, and seem quite keen to get back.

[GordonS]

23 hours ago, Blue1870 said:

Me yes my point is basically some of the grounds are not the best only an opinion. Either it's an astro inside a cage with one tiny stand and poor facilities etc all money orientated or old ground with awful facilities with loads of work needing done. You've got forfar and Stranraer where you can watch from 4 sides. Covered seating covered terracing open terracing and decent facilities. Both our teams had to spend a fair bit to get grounds looking like this.

Important to remember that the then-SFL sides had access to a lot of post-Taylor Report funding for grounds that wasn't available to non-league clubs. For example, the bulk of the funding to seat the Shed and build a new main stand at Stair Park came from the Football Trust and the local council. Around the same time Linlithgow Rose funded the Davie Roy Stand themselves.

Also, if we're talking about old grounds with awful facilities and loads of work needing done, we need to talk about Albion Rovers, who have one prehistoric (but deservedly loved) stand and a small concrete terrace behind one goal. The condemned covered terrace opposite is the biggest ruin in the pyramid. And many of the astro cages are better grounds for the level than places like the Falkirk Stadium, in which a couple of hundred people are spread out in a single stand of about 4,000 seats to watch East Stirling.

Are we really saying that watching East Kilbride is a more soulless experience than watching Clyde? East Fife, Stirling Albion and Dumbarton are one-stand grounds too (or only open one stand) while Stenhousemuir and Annan have one stand and an end terrace. The four-sided grounds you mention aren't ubiquitous in the SPFL.

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, doulikefish said:

This is the correct answer 

It's not, it's a ridiculous answer. It's bad enough that good clubs in the Lowland League are stuck with B teams and fake clubs like Broomhill, but we have to be punished again because we happen to be in the same league as them?

And in the Highland League, ambitious clubs are to be punished because of the shenanigans of one club, Buckie Thistle?

Limiting promotion and relegation to collectively punish all the clubs in a league because of the low integrity of some of their members is, when you think it through, obviously irrational and unfair.

[The Moonster]

14 minutes ago, GordonS said:

It's not, it's a ridiculous answer. It's bad enough that good clubs in the Lowland League are stuck with B teams and fake clubs like Broomhill, but we have to be punished again because we happen to be in the same league as them?

And in the Highland League, ambitious clubs are to be punished because of the shenanigans of one club, Buckie Thistle?

Limiting promotion and relegation to collectively punish all the clubs in a league because of the low integrity of some of their members is, when you think it through, obviously irrational and unfair.

The Lowland League can open up their relegation places then, so as to be fair to the regional leagues below them, and maybe you can rid yourselves of "fake clubs" and B teams. Screaming about unfair the big bad SPFL are when your league does the exact same thing is hilarious hypocrisy, especially when your league has teams who literally just paid each team enough money to compete. 

The Highland League will be taken seriously when the winners of the division don't go for a piss up abroad when the play off is happening, or just altogether "forget" to apply for a criteria exemption that would allow them to participate.  

[morrison]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

 The Highland League will be taken seriously when the winners of the division don't go for a piss up abroad when the play off is happening, or just altogether "forget" to apply for a criteria exemption that would allow them to participate.  

Two scenarios a decade apart condemns a whole league. You're funny.

As for the LL part, while you may have a point, it's incredibly childish for SPFL2 and LL to point at each other sneering about wanting the other to budge first before they do what's obviously the right thing to do from a sporting integrity viewpoint... But here we are. As we have been for years between here for the LL General thread.

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, morrison said:

Two scenarios a decade apart condemns a whole league. You're funny.

As for the LL part, while you may have a point, it's incredibly childish for SPFL2 and LL to point at each other sneering about wanting the other to budge first before they do what's obviously the right thing to do from a sporting integrity viewpoint... But here we are. As we have been for years between here for the LL General thread.

Yes it's a shame the HL teams mentality hasn't changed in a decade and there's still teams doing all they can to avoid promotion. 

The Lowland League voted in B teams when they had been unanimously rejected on several occasions by SPFL clubs, funnily enough on sporting integrity grounds. The Lowland League don't have any moral high ground to take, if you don't like being f**ked up the arse don't bend over and open your cheeks for the Old Firm. 

[To B or not B]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

It's not, it's a ridiculous answer. It's bad enough that good clubs in the Lowland League are stuck with B teams and fake clubs like Broomhill, but we have to be punished again because we happen to be in the same league as them?

And in the Highland League, ambitious clubs are to be punished because of the shenanigans of one club, Buckie Thistle?

Limiting promotion and relegation to collectively punish all the clubs in a league because of the low integrity of some of their members is, when you think it through, obviously irrational and unfair.

Why doesn’t your club put forward a proposal to be voted on then. All we heard, certainly when we were in the league, was the  East league clubs moaning  about lack of ventilation. We now have several ex East clubs in the LL and not a single one of them has put forward a proposal to change it, as far as I am aware. Is it a case of now we are there we don’t need to worry about it and sod the clubs left in the East?

You can also moan about being “punished” but like them or loath them the “fake” clubs have been in the league for a long time now while certain clubs were happy to poo poo the LL because they didn’t want to take the leap of faith from the ill fated juniors.

[1993]

3 hours ago, BFTD said:

Folk keep saying that - it must be some league. You'd think Elgin might be interested in a return to the Highland glory days after nearly a quarter of a century sitting in the bottom half of League Two, but their fans on here usually deny that.

Funny that the only League Two side to have been relegated to it so far have been camped out at the top of the table ever since, even after the parachute payments stopped, and seem quite keen to get back.

Geography and all that entails is the reason HL clubs don’t want promoted.