Artificial pitch vote

[HibeeJibee]

Seriously though... what if say Falkirk Council (who own stadium?) can't or won't tear up pitch, evict 'Shire/women/youth games, lose that income, etc.

Falkirk can't go up?

Have to groundshare?

[GNU_Linux]

They look bad on the telly or something. Getting rid of them will be the thing that gets Scottish EPL enjoyers plus Dave from Tamworth & Rob from Blyth to start watching the Cinch  Willy Hill.

Edited May 21 by GNU_Linux

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, Willie adie said:

So this vote requires a 9-3 majority  fo pass, yet reconstruction  or expansion  of play offs require an 11-1 vote

Yes, the 11-1s are mainly for changes to the financial distribution model, it's all outlined in the SPFL rules.

[Caledonian1]

1 hour ago, Willie adie said:

So this vote requires a 9-3 majority  fo pass, yet reconstruction  or expansion  of play offs require an 11-1 vote

The voting structure is completely arranged to suit the Old and infirm and get the desired result.  ie more than two teams have plastic pitches so that would never pass on an 11-1 structure.  11-1 is to ensure that all the other teams cannot gang on that the Weegie Arse Cheeks (who will usually vote en-bloc)  

[gannonball]

15 minutes ago, Caledonian1 said:

The voting structure is completely arranged to suit the Old and infirm and get the desired result.  ie more than two teams have plastic pitches so that would never pass on an 11-1 structure.  11-1 is to ensure that all the other teams cannot gang on that the Weegie Arse Cheeks (who will usually vote en-bloc)  

The Rangers in whatever guise weren't in the top league for 4 seasons yet the voting structure did not change, mainly thanks to Aberdeen. It's quite obvious that there's often more than the owners of 2 clubs in Scottish are happy for things to remain as they are. I don't agree with 11-1 rule myself, but if you're wanting to blame one guy who really fucked Scottish football moving forward it's Stuart Milne. 

ETA - in fact this has been discussed on this thread iirc.

Edited May 21 by gannonball

[LIVIFOREVER]

2 hours ago, Charles Stiles said:

Reading that BBC article, I didn't realise there had only been three artificial pitches in the top league, Livi, Hamilton and Killie. Interestingly all three clubs have been recently relegated. That's some home advantage the artificial stuff gives you. 

 

2 hours ago, Swello said:

Did Dunfermline not have one for a while? (it was a weird carpet tile job IIRC). Maybe it was a cup game I'm remembering as we've not played them in the 2nd tier.

 

1 hour ago, Charles Stiles said:

Was just going by that article but looks like they did when in the old SPL in 2003 but had to remove it after a vote by other clubs. 

Yeah sure they had to rip it up and put down a grass pitch because the SPL didn't allow them. Then think they went back to plastic when relegated.

1 hour ago, GNU_Linux said:

They look bad on the telly or something. Getting rid of them will be the thing that gets Scottish EPL enjoyers plus Dave from Tamworth & Rob from Blyth to start watching the Cinch  Willy Hill.

Yep, they look like old worn carpets on the telly, not quite as bad sitting inside the stadium watching, and i'm convinced their pre conceived prejudice just parrot the same old diatribe against them, without any proper evidence backing it up. 

If they were doing this properly, there would be an official meeting where everyone involved could discuss it, airing their views, in front of experts giving them scientific evidence from research , and that they couldn't vote against them unless they had a valid reason, other than just not liking them, because they just dinny, right.

[Theyellowbox]

3 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Is there any actual evidence of this, other than folks opinions from how it looks, there are standards it has to pass, and it does, unlike  grass pitches. Also a bit of a brass neck a St Johnstone fan coming out slagging our pitch, the state yours was in. 

The evidence is with your own eyes if you have ever watched a game on one. Not only does the ball roll and bounce unnaturally, but especially at Livi, if the sun is out, the glare makes the game nearly unwatchable. I'm not against artificial pitches, just bad ones any Livi's is the worst I've seen, aside from possibly montrose.

Not going to defend the McDairmid pitch, it is a mess for 90% of the season, minimum standards should apply to grass too. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

20 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Yes, the 11-1s are mainly for changes to the financial distribution model any that directly concern Celtic and The Rangers, it's all outlined in the SPFL rules.

FTFY.

[0Neils40yarder]

2 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

They don't know because they simply don't want to know. Much easier just to parrot the lines uttered by pundits etc and be done with it.

I've said this many times before in various threads but Scottish Football really could do with shaking off the pretence that we are among Europe's Elite and structure our game accordingly. If artificial pitches are "tin pot" then maybe that's because, when you compare the SPFL to the truly Elite Leagues we are "tin pot"

Its absolutely disgraceful that a handful of member clubs, who just happen to be at the top table at this 'arbitrary' point in time, are to be given the opportunity to gatekeep the top tier from other members of the same organisation. Whilst I would have felt the same way on this issue if it was the SPL mandating SFL clubs conform to their rules and regulations to join, at least they were different entities.

I'm clearly not a fan of Airdrie, but these rules are a perfectly example of the impact it could have on clubs like them. They lease their stadium, so cannot mandate their landlords rip up their pitch. And, given their landlords make money from allowing the pitch to be hired out on non matchdays, why would they do this? Essentially this is saying to clubs like Airdrie "no matter what you achieve on the park, you are not welcome in our top league" - The additional irony of course that the stadium they currently play in is itself a white elephant that, in order to conform to ridiculous rules in place at the time, bankrupted the original club.

Airdrie don't lease their pitch, they own it

[LIVIFOREVER]

2 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

The evidence is with your own eyes if you have ever watched a game on one. Not only does the ball roll and bounce unnaturally, but especially at Livi, if the sun is out, the glare makes the game nearly unwatchable. I'm not against artificial pitches, just bad ones any Livi's is the worst I've seen, aside from possibly montrose.

Not going to defend the McDairmid pitch, it is a mess for 90% of the season, minimum standards should apply to grass too. 

Then how does it pass the inspection required for us to have it?

This unnatural bounce or roll is debatable, who decides what's natural, it changes from pitch to pitch depending on the time of year and playing surface. Also artificial pitches all get tested for bounces and rolls, but like grass pitches, heat and cold weather will affect them, and also like grass pitches*, it's up to the home team whether they water pitches or not, deciding if they gain an advantage depending who they are playing.

*grass pitches also give you the option on what length of grass you have, leaving it longer against better opposition to hamper their slick passing.

[DA Baracus]

1 hour ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Yeah sure they had to rip it up and put down a grass pitch because the SPL didn't allow them. Then think they went back to plastic when relegated.

Nope, have had grass ever since the second one had to be removed.

[DA Baracus]

1 hour ago, Theyellowbox said:

4 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

was in. 

The evidence is with your own eyes if you have ever watched a game on one. Not only does the ball roll and bounce unnaturally,

Compared to what? 

[Bairnardo]

3 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Seriously though... what if say Falkirk Council (who own stadium?) can't or won't tear up pitch, evict 'Shire/women/youth games, lose that income, etc.

Falkirk can't go up?

Have to groundshare?

The pitch and everything that looks at it is ours. Council have nothing to do with it. Any pitch replacement will be on the club. 

[PSJ.84]

As ever in Scottish football, we focus on the really, really, really important stuff. 

[KTID26]

1 hour ago, gannonball said:

The Rangers in whatever guise weren't in the top league for 4 seasons yet the voting structure did not change, mainly thanks to Aberdeen. It's quite obvious that there's often more than the owners of 2 clubs in Scottish are happy for things to remain as they are. I don't agree with 11-1 rule myself, but if you're wanting to blame one guy who really fucked Scottish football moving forward it's Stuart Milne. 

ETA - in fact this has been discussed on this thread iirc.

You know as well as everyone on P and B know that Stewart Milne thought he was a big shot and voted with the self entitled Celtic. 

[GordonS]

5 hours ago, 10menwent2mow said:

Why do top flight teams with their own training grounds build artificial pitches if they aren't good enough. How many development League games are played on artificial surfaces. 

Hearts B play Lowland League games on a plastic pitch they share with Spartans, Spartans Women and Hutchie Vale.

Celtic B share at Airdrie along with Celtic Women and Glasgow University's WoS team.

They're clearly not that opposed to plastic pitches then.

There were only 4 Premiership sides in the development league this season: Killie and Livi used their own plastic pitches, Hibs played on grass at their training ground and Dundee played on grass at North End's ground.

If you step down to the CAS Elite under 18s you'll find a lot more on plastic including Aberdeen, Hearts, Motherwell and St Mirren.

[Jacky1990]

I see people's views on plastic pitches in the same way I treat opinions on B teams; a barometer for people's ability for critical thinking outside of their own club's situation.

I'd wager the majority of people claiming you cant play good football on plastic pitches, or that there is a bad bounce, or that they increase the risk of injury, have no genuine basis for that argument and are just regurgitating what a fellow fan or their club's players/managers have said as if those same problems dont exist for loads of poor grass pitches. Either that or its the "but in England" principle... another absolute nonsense.

If only we could put our efforts into proper issues within Scottish football like lack of opportunities for young players and the subsequent exodus of our most talented youngsters down south, the piss poor TV deal(s) and a rise in fan bampottery. But naw, heaven help us if Kyogo and Cantwell have to play on a pitch they dont like.

[Bairnardo]

1 minute ago, Jacky1990 said:

I see people's views on plastic pitches in the same way I treat opinions on B teams; a barometer for people's ability for critical thinking outside of their own club's situation.

I'd wager the majority of people claiming you cant play good football on plastic pitches, or that there is a bad bounce, or that they increase the risk of injury, have no genuine basis for that argument and are just regurgitating what a fellow fan or their club's players/managers have said as if those same problems dont exist for loads of poor grass pitches. Either that or its the "but in England" principle... another absolute nonsense.

If only we could put our efforts into proper issues within Scottish football like lack of opportunities for young players and the subsequent exodus of our most talented youngsters down south, the piss poor TV deal(s) and a rise in fan bampottery. But naw, heaven help us if Kyogo and Cantwell have to play on a pitch they dont like.

Excellent post brother, but particularly on the money is the first paragraph. This is an issue where most peoples opinions are indeed absolutely paper thin. 

[Theyellowbox]

2 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Then how does it pass the inspection required for us to have it?

This unnatural bounce or roll is debatable, who decides what's natural, it changes from pitch to pitch depending on the time of year and playing surface. Also artificial pitches all get tested for bounces and rolls, but like grass pitches, heat and cold weather will affect them, and also like grass pitches*, it's up to the home team whether they water pitches or not, deciding if they gain an advantage depending who they are playing.

*grass pitches also give you the option on what length of grass you have, leaving it longer against better opposition to hamper their slick passing.

It passes inspections as it is playable. Don't think anyone would say otherwise, but equally, that's not to say it makes for a decent pitch. The prime question is, whether football is better on (good) grass pitches or good artificial ones? I'm pretty sure most would prefer a good natural pitch, but at certain levels, economics takes over.

Artificial pitches are all OK in the lower leagues for sides like Airdrie and Falkirk, who can monetise other local sides using them and for clubs like stenny etc, who can do a lot of community stuff on it, but for the top flight, where 90% of the focus of our game is, I just don't think they should be used. For an example of the 'bounce' at the Livi v St Johnstone game tge other week, there was a couple of longer balls played and you could see the Saints defenders caught out by the way the ball bounced on the surface, which albeit didn't lead to a chance, but was pretty noticeable.

If Livi went back to a grass pitch, don't lie, Livi fans would almost all prefer it. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 hour ago, KTID26 said:

You know as well as everyone on P and B know that Stewart Milne thought he was a big shot and voted with the self entitled Celtic. 

He got to be their pal for a few years. He probably got some stickers and allowed to keep his dinner money.