Junior Takeover

[GordonS]

33 minutes ago, Shanner said:

Well it seems to be a vote that only exists in the minds of people of a certain viewpoint. There's way too much hypothetical it's and buts masquerading as solid information on this thread. 

All we really have is Pyramidy sorts catastrophising about a future that very likely won't come to pass. 

You're right, it's too hypothetical and I should probably have left it alone. I just think a bit more consensus and wider, long-term thinking would be good. As a Linlithgow Rose fan I love the SJC and I miss it, but listening to fans of other clubs I realise it's mostly fans of clubs that had realistic chances of winning it that feel this way.

[GIRUU]

4 hours ago, An Absolute Imposter said:

I have no extra information to give myself, but how much revenue do the SJFA make out of running this competition with entry fees and the 2 legged semi finals on top if the final.

 

They will bring in around £100k from all the fees and only pay out about half that in prizes. But they obviously need the money to pay for their wages that have jumped from £3k to £23k. Plus the sponsors money which will presumably cover the final costs. The only thing they need to pay for.

[santheman]

6 minutes ago, GordonS said:

People confuse majoritarianism with democracy. Democracy includes the idea of giving people as much freedom to make their own choices as you can.

It's not just the majority getting their own way over minorities no matter what.

All very well until it comes to a vote about something

[An Absolute Imposter]

3 hours ago, Shanner said:

Most teams will take whatever income they can get; that's just good, responsible stewardship. Cynics can't be applauding Talbot, etc for being self-sustaining and then criticizing those same teams for exploiting a completely fair and merit-based source of income.  We've seen excellent crowds at the Talbot games (and other clubs games) in the cup in the post-COVID seasons. The reduction of the competition's geographical scope has arguably helped in this regard as we have had consecutive derbies against Cumnock and a couple of local grudge match ties v Darvel which have got the fans out.

Apart from the crowd at an end-of-season league decider, you can guarantee that a Junior Cup crowd will be significantly bigger and feel like more of an occasion than a league game v the same opponents. I don't know what that translates to as money in the bank but it must be worth it.

Most of the obsession about the SJC you mention comes from the "progressive" gang rather than the participants. I strongly suspect that most teams in the Junior Cup are there for pragmatic reasons now and fully realise that it is a shadow of what it was in the recent past.  Many would most likely drop it in a minute if a more lucrative alternative cup was on offer - but there isn't, so if you're given melons you make melonaid. 

Whether it's one game or half a dozen, it represents income that would otherwise be closed off to teams if we didn't participate - yes you get more the further you go; that's not an unusual way to distribute prize money, but it's worth the gamble that you could do a Yoker and get to the final. 

If some clubs don't want a slice of this then that's their prerogative but they probably need to accept that other teams are getting on with doing the best for themselves. The fixtures could probably be managed better but it's not an impossible task to accommodate the SJC in its current, truncated form. 

 

 

Excellent post as usual Shanner.

Dont disagree with any of it and to be honest my post wasnt directed at posters like you; who enjoy the SJC and all that it is but can see there is more to the game than just it.

You seem to agree that the SJC or any Cup competition should not take precedence over the league, which let's be honest was the norm before the pyramid move.

There is an element who seem to view it as link or a way to get back to the halcyon days of yore  whatever they may be.

Semis of SJC; Talbot v Darvel and JB v Lie.

Semis of WOSFL cup; Talbot v Pollok and Darvel v SBA.

From a purely footballing viewpoint why was there a thread for the SJC and none for the WOSFL.

All exciting, quality match ups. It will be the same for the finals, I don't buy this ' it's the SJC, so I must get more excited about it'. Remember I have a Junior past, so don't fire that one at me. Putting the Financial rewards aside both are worth winning as is the much maligned SRCC.

I'm not saying the pyramid is perfect, far from it.

But I do have an example of a club who have definitely benefited from the West joining it.

Threave Rovers quit from the LL around 2015/16 and returned back to the SOS.

2 seasons ago the members of the WOSFL graciously admitted them to the west league setup. They may or may not gain promotion to Div 2 this season.

All the feedback I get from players and committee are positive in that the club has grown on and off the field. Again opposition in league games or friendlies (had great chats with Bankies fans last July) see Threave's addition as being beneficial to all. 

(I am not anti SOS as I have been to many more South games than West and constantly fight the South clubs corner on here.)

This for me is the future of our game; the pyramid and the opportunities that, albeit limited at the moment, it can give to clubs to thrive and grow going forward. 

Also I am not anti SJC, but I don't like this slight undertone that it must be protected at all costs.

You may not agree with this summation, but for me there is this viewpoint amongst mainly fans, but have come across it at clubs too.

[An Absolute Imposter]

1 hour ago, GIRUU said:

They will bring in around £100k from all the fees and only pay out about half that in prizes. But they obviously need the money to pay for their wages that have jumped from £3k to £23k. Plus the sponsors money which will presumably cover the final costs. The only thing they need to pay for.

So again like the good old days it reeks of self-interest and self-profit. This is my main problem; if these guys are in it for the love of the game, like the managent of the other setups, why does it always come back to the monies. Any fees paid should go towards prize money, admin which I cludes the running of the competition. Why does the SJFA need so much money in the bank, what other costs do they cover.

Do you know what bin the SJFA and keep the SJC; that seems to be where the problems are.

[An Absolute Imposter]

1 hour ago, Shanner said:

All we really have is Pyramidy sorts catastrophising about a future that very likely won't come to pass. 

Shanner a lot of your posts are pro pyramid, so why are you being the lone voice on here 'defending' the SJFA. I was going to add defending the SJC, but I don't want to be anti-SJC.

I can be called pro-pyramid only in the sense that it can be a benefit to the clubs. If it becomes solely about having a pyramid to appease UEFA/FIFA I will happily jump ship.

The usual suspects are very quiet today, leaving you to take the undeserved flak.

[energyzone]

1 hour ago, An Absolute Imposter said:

 

Semis of SJC; Talbot v Darvel and JB v Lie.

Semis of WOSFL cup; Talbot v Pollok and Darvel v SBA.

From a purely footballing viewpoint why was there a thread for the SJC and none for the WOSFL.

Surely just because @jimbaxters mistakenly posted it in the WOS forum instead of the Junior one, bless him

[Casper Wilson]

6 hours ago, GIRUU said:

They will bring in around £100k from all the fees and only pay out about half that in prizes. But they obviously need the money to pay for their wages that have jumped from £3k to £23k. Plus the sponsors money which will presumably cover the final costs. The only thing they need to pay for.

Are these figures factual? Or did you just make them up to suit your argument?

[Vanderbilt]

50 minutes ago, Casper Wilson said:

Are these figures factual? Or did you just make them up to suit your argument?

Why don’t you give us the facts then Alex?

[Shanner]

6 hours ago, An Absolute Imposter said:

Excellent post as usual Shanner.

Dont disagree with any of it and to be honest my post wasnt directed at posters like you; who enjoy the SJC and all that it is but can see there is more to the game than just it.

You seem to agree that the SJC or any Cup competition should not take precedence over the league, which let's be honest was the norm before the pyramid move.

There is an element who seem to view it as link or a way to get back to the halcyon days of yore  whatever they may be.

Semis of SJC; Talbot v Darvel and JB v Lie.

Semis of WOSFL cup; Talbot v Pollok and Darvel v SBA.

From a purely footballing viewpoint why was there a thread for the SJC and none for the WOSFL.

All exciting, quality match ups. It will be the same for the finals, I don't buy this ' it's the SJC, so I must get more excited about it'. Remember I have a Junior past, so don't fire that one at me. Putting the Financial rewards aside both are worth winning as is the much maligned SRCC.

I'm not saying the pyramid is perfect, far from it.

But I do have an example of a club who have definitely benefited from the West joining it.

Threave Rovers quit from the LL around 2015/16 and returned back to the SOS.

2 seasons ago the members of the WOSFL graciously admitted them to the west league setup. They may or may not gain promotion to Div 2 this season.

All the feedback I get from players and committee are positive in that the club has grown on and off the field. Again opposition in league games or friendlies (had great chats with Bankies fans last July) see Threave's addition as being beneficial to all. 

(I am not anti SOS as I have been to many more South games than West and constantly fight the South clubs corner on here.)

This for me is the future of our game; the pyramid and the opportunities that, albeit limited at the moment, it can give to clubs to thrive and grow going forward. 

Also I am not anti SJC, but I don't like this slight undertone that it must be protected at all costs.

You may not agree with this summation, but for me there is this viewpoint amongst mainly fans, but have come across it at clubs too.

fair enough post - I don't see the SJC as something that has an absolute right to exist at all costs and I'd be surprised if there are many left that really feel that it is a hill to die on in terms of returning to the Juniors as a way to preserve it. It should always be as flexible as possible IMO. 

The arguments for keeping it are still more compelling than the arguments for scrapping it at this point, especially when a lot of the "scrap it" camp are unabashedly motivated by an unhealthy dislike of the Junior grade with the SJC being the preeminent symbol of that.

The question of why so many people are desperate to essentially vandalize a competition that still gets a great level of fan engagement at the turnstiles is the one I always like to try and get answers to because football is all about the fans and getting shot of a product they are demonstrably still attached to really doesn't feel like the "good guy" argument in this. So if we are going to get shot of it any time soon the arguments need to be far stronger than the stuff on 99% of this thread and should include attractive alternatives to the SJC to gain some buy-in from the SJC participants because that would be walking the walk in terms of being progressive. 

Edited April 14 by Shanner

[Burnieman]

17 minutes ago, Shanner said:

The question of why so many people are desperate to essentially vandalize a competition that still gets a great level of fan engagement at the turnstiles is the one I always like to try and get answers to because football is all about the fans and getting shot of a product they are demonstrably still attached to really doesn't feel like the "good guy" argument in this. So if we are going to get shot of it any time soon the arguments need to be far stronger than the stuff on 99% of this thread and should include attractive alternatives to the SJC to gain some buy-in from the SJC participants because that would be walking the walk in terms of being progressive. 

I suppose it's fairly straightforward.   As soon as the competition starts to materially effect the WoSFL to the detriment of the rest of the Pyramid, then it needs binned.

There is a danger it could happen IF entry to the SCC is made non-compulsory by the WoSFL against the wishes of the LL, EoSFL and SOSFL, and instead the Junior Cup is handed priority on fixture scheduling.  That undermines the SCC and the Pyramid, it may also get the SFA looking at it.

Again as you said, all hypothetical at this stage and may never happen at all and the WoSFL continue to juggle things, but that's the argument should things go down that road.   Effectively, you're either fully committted to the senior Pyramid and it's competitions, or you're not.

Edited April 14 by Burnieman

[An Absolute Imposter]

4 minutes ago, Shanner said:

fair enough post - I don't see the SJC as something that has an absolute right to exist at all costs and I'd be surprised if there are many left that really feel that it is a hill to die on in terms of returning to the Juniors as a way to preserve it. It should always be as flexible as possible IMO. 

The arguments for keeping it are still more compelling than the arguments for scrapping it at this point, especially when a lot of the "scrap it" camp are unabashedly motivated by an unhealthy dislike of the Junior grade with the SJC being the preeminent symbol of that.

The question of why so many people are desperate to essentially vandalize a competition that still gets a great level of fan engagement at the turnstiles is the one I always like to try and get answers to because football is all about the fans and getting shot of a product they are demonstrably still attached to really doesn't feel like the "good guy" argument in this. So if we are going to get shot of it any time soon the arguments need to be far stronger than the stuff on 99% of this thread and should include attractive alternatives to the SJC to gain some buy-in from the SJC participants because that would be walking the walk in terms of being progressive. 

I'm starting to think it's not the SJC folks ire is aimed at but the SJFA, but unfortunately the SJC is the visible and easy target for that, anger shall we call it.

I had a thought earlier re the SJFA, are they not responsible for the running of the 2 leagues in the North East or will it be the North and East Region SJFA.

At any rate they are both SJFA leagues, and I don't see much evidence of the SJFA working for the members in these leagues.

I'm thinking with respect to assisting/encouraging any clubs that would like to work towards an SFA license, if it ever opens up again. I don't actively follow either league or any clubs, but what input do the SJFA have in both leagues.

Maybe someone like @Marten will be able to furnish us with some facts about the relationship between the SJFA and the 2 leagues.

I am ready and willing to go on a rant about the SJFA but only if its justified of course, so some facts please.

[An Absolute Imposter]

1 minute ago, Burnieman said:

I suppose it's fairly straightforward.   As soon as the competition starts to materially effect the WoSFL to the detriment to the rest of the Pyramid, then it needs binned.

There is a danger it could happen IF entry to the SCC is made non-compulsory by the WoSFL against the wishes of the LL, EoSFL and SOSFL, and instead the Junior Cup is handed priority on fixture scheduling.  That undermines the SCC and the Pyramid, it may also get the SFA looking at it.

Again as you said, all hypothetical at this stage and may never happen at all and the WoSFL continue to juggle things, but that's the argument should things go down that road.   Effectively, you're either fully committted to the senior Pyramid and it's competitions, or you're not.

To put it quite simply in my mind. League games should always come first and be prioritised over any other competition.

[Dean Learner]

15 minutes ago, An Absolute Imposter said:

To put it quite simply in my mind. League games should always come first and be prioritised over any other competition.

I agree with this in theory but in practical terms, I don't think it really works. 

Teams aren't going to be happy sitting idle on Saturdays to allow free weeks for the cup competitions. 

[Shannon]

Two Scottish Junior Cup semi final ties with well over 1000 at each first leg shows that despite the moans on here about it fans still enjoy the competition and brings out a lot of fair weather supporters, neutrals to give clubs their biggest or if not one of biggest gates of the season. You won't get another competition at our level that can bring out as many supporters as the Scottish Junior Cup when you get to the later rounds. Unfortunately the South Challenge Cup and West of Scotland Cup doesn't capture the imagination and attention of the average supporter as much as Scottish Junior Cup and  The Scottish Cup too as such well known competitions with great histories.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, Shannon said:

Two Scottish Junior Cup semi final ties with well over 1000 at each first leg shows that despite the moans on here about it fans still enjoy the competition and brings out a lot of fair weather supporters, neutrals to give clubs their biggest or if not one of biggest gates of the season. You won't get another competition at our level that can bring out as many supporters as the Scottish Junior Cup when you get to the later rounds. Unfortunately the South Challenge Cup and West of Scotland Cup doesn't capture the imagination and attention of the average supporter as much as Scottish Junior Cup and  The Scottish Cup too as such well known competitions with great histories.

Same was true last season. The response was that the SJFA was losing money on it.

Hence, the return to two-legged semi-finals and 60% in the semi-finals and 15% from the earlier rounds leaving 80 teams worse off when compared to the previous model.

Don't think anyone would argue that the tournament at the latter stages is still supported better than the other competitions out there. Still leaves the question of whether or not its sustainable.

[jimbaxters]

9 hours ago, An Absolute Imposter said:

To put it quite simply in my mind. League games should always come first and be prioritised over any other competition.

Even the big Scottish Cup?

[jimbaxters]

15 hours ago, energyzone said:

Surely just because @jimbaxters mistakenly posted it in the WOS forum instead of the Junior one, bless him

One knew exactly what one was doing. Four WoSFL teams involved in the premier cup competition available to WoSFL clubs.

Thanks for the blessing though 

[An Absolute Imposter]

39 minutes ago, jimbaxters said:

Even the big Scottish Cup?

I would say yes, I'll be honest I dont know if league games are postponed to accomodate rescheduled Big Scottish games. 

But they shouldn't.

[Hillonearth]

The whole thing seems like a bit of a storm in a teacup TBH, and it was put to a vote to fall back under the auspices of the SJFA I'd be surprised if the level of support for it to pass was actually there.

I've always said that you could tell where clubs stood on the matter by referring back to the old "Junior football - what is the future?" thread and seeing roughly in what order the dominoes fell...the last 15 or 20 clubs to declare for the WOS clearly only did so reluctantly when it became clear what kind of hellscape they'd be left playing in if they didn't. There's no reason to believe many of them have changed their minds in the interim, as in most cases it'll likely be the same people in charge.

On the other side of the coin, there are probably the same number of clubs who were on the other side of the argument at the time and just as anti status quo as the first lot were pro. You can add in another 15 or 20 new clubs who have joined since and thus have no previous history - and it follows no atavistic emotional attachment - to the SJFA.

There also no doubt will be a lot of clubs who don't feel that strongly either way, and just want somewhere well-run to play in. By and large, there's been an uptick in the quality of governance since the advent of the WOS - you don't need to look that far back to the days when we got drip-fed on a Monday night who you were playing the next weekend to give an obvious example.

In a way you can compare it with the working from home thing over COVID. Once things were getting back to normal there were those who pushed hard to get everybody back in the office five days a week because that what they felt most comfortable with - they thought everyone felt the way they did, only to find the appetite to do so was nowhere near as universal as they thought it would be.