Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 v 🇭🇺 Hungary

[DoingThe42]

I think in tournaments we are now shackled so strongly to our history of failing to get out of groups that we've developed a mental block when it comes to tournaments. It's such a big thing in the national consciousness that we approach winning a game at a tournament like it's some remarkable achievement that would be worthy of honours being dished out. It isn't. It's really simple, you just have a go and beat one of the other average/bad teams. Other teams do it all the time without being better than us.

It's an over-simplification to lay all the blame on mentality, but we definitely have an inferiority complex in these tournaments, when the reality is that most of the teams in these competitions aren't very good.

We are a pretty poor side with the injuries limiting us at the moment. That back three is dreadful for this level and off the bench we were limited.

I don't think Clarke got it right last night, but I'm prepared to cut him a bit of slack considering he was missing three of the most important players in the team from the start. That is a tough ask for any middling team like us at this level, and if we'd had a full-strength squad I think we'd probably have got through. Neither of the other two teams we faced have been any good.

[Elixir]

We would be better served if more of our squad played abroad in more technical leagues. The Premier League is the best marketed league in the world, but I'm unconvinced it will improve you technically if you're not already gifted in that respect - certainly as much as others anyway. Sure, players born on the continent move there, but many were already brought up learning to love the ball, rather than lump it. Coaches and managers in England, as in Scotland, are also largely dinosaurs in comparison to their continental counterparts.

Spain, Germany, France, holders Italy - all only have a few players in their entire squad who play in England. Portugal buck that trend a bit, admittedly, but again, players like Silva, Fernandes, Jota, Dias would have been raised to play football completely differently to players in Scotland. Technical ability is valued so much more.

Austria only have one player in their squad who plays in England, and it isn't even the Premier League. Similar can be said of nations that should inspire us long-term, like Croatia, and those at this tournament that have completely shown us up, at least performance wise, like Slovakia, Georgia and Albania.

In summary, the Premier League may be a fast-paced, blood and thunder league that is entertaining to watch, but I don't think it prepares you as well as leagues on the continent do for international football, particularly tournaments. It should be noted that England have also suffered from this over the years (decades). Bellingham is their best player and he will almost certainly play most of his career outside the EPL bubble, if not all of it.

I probably fell into the trap of overestimating our current potential based on how many of our strongest eleven when fit play in the Premier League - either for good sides or some of the bigger clubs. As has been covered, Clarke barely played Ferguson pre-injury, and young, promising guys like Doig and Max Johnston have barely been in the squad. The latter would have been an improvement on Ralston, for example.

More players playing in Italy, Germany, Spain, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, etc, and a manager who can get the most out of the squad in front of him would certainly take us further than we are now. We need to encourage more players to be brave and embrace this - it will also improve you as a person as well as a player adapting to new cultures, hopefully learning the language of most of your teammates, ideally not binge drinking and scraning chippies, and so on.

Is there enough will there to be different, however?

Edited Tuesday at 00:14 by Elixir

[Ya Bezzer!]

I'm just about done with Scotland and I'm ready to enjoy the rest of the tournament but....

Can we all stop with the 'ha-ha-ha we don't do friendlies only important games' pish?

Yet another diddy attitude that's prevalent in Scottish football.  

I mean we don't even really experiment in them, give a 17 or 18 year old a run out, or try playing a formation from the 1920s just to see what happens.  No, we just play shite with the same old faces and get beat and then go into major tournament's in horrendous form and no confidence.

Friendlies should be the barometer for how much of a f**k you give.  Because if you put in effort and do well when there is ostensibly nothing to play for that shows something.  Whereas if you don't fucking bother your arse cos you can't motivate yourself in a national jersey that also shows something.

It really, really, really annoys me that we take football so seriously and yet almost everything in Scottish football is unprofessional, slap-dash, self destructive, lazy, that'll-do, unambitious, retrograde and generally pishy!

 

 

 

 

 

[Dons_1988]

Pat nevins column on bbc sport website is quite dispiriting. 

I don’t understand how people can watch last nights game and suggest we couldn’t do any better. 

Moyes was saying last night that there’s no shame in it. I’m sorry, but within the relevant importance of football, there is shame in putting in such a performance when faced with such an opportunity. We need to be really honest with ourselves. 

‘there’s no shame in it’ is about as constructive as rants about kids and PlayStations or moaning about the tartan army enjoying themselves. 

[Groundhopping Adventures]

Just really annoyed by our whole set up. We aren't as good as Germany, fine. Set up to lose that 2-0 like a diddy manager at Parkhead or Ibrox. 5-1 would have been okay if we'd had a go but we didn't. Celebrating a 1-1 draw with Switzerland was a dreadful look for Clarke. Good point yes but should have at least tried to win it. Last night was disgraceful. It wasn't 1970 Brazil we were playing it was 2024 Hungary. EPL fanboys had said Hungary were a dark horse, they weren't, they were rotten. Whether it was the media, the Scottish psyche or what but we went into that tournament like a complete diddy who had somehow qualified, not a team who had beaten Spain and Norway. 

The SFA are shit scared of a "foreign" manager after Bertie Vogts. If you only have Scottish managers it will be the same merry-go-round of the same folk who play the same dreadful football who think Scotland are mince because it's always through the lense of comparing us to England. Try something different not someone who will always be negative and think we are rotten. 

[Ya Bezzer!]

1 minute ago, Dons_1988 said:

Pat nevins column on bbc sport website is quite dispiriting. 

Pat Nevin won a world title in a Scotland shirt.

But lets face it, if you can't even vote to run your own country you are hardly going to go 4-2-4.

We are just a sad sack nation that hides it's fucking lack of self belief behind alcoholism and fancy dress.

[DoingThe42]

Hungary are a poor team. Being a man with little to do with my time, I've watched a lot of their recent games. They're a team that plays better against high quality oppostion because of the shape they use, but when it comes to run-of-the-mill games they are basically rubbish and have been getting by by the seat of their pants for a while.

They should have lost in Lithuania, Serbia should have beaten them home and away but Hungary got exceptionally jammy.

A lot of talk before the tournament was about them being a tough opponent. I got the feeling most people saying this had never watched them play. They're rubbish.

We gave them far too much respect. They're a team we should be taking on to beat, but we're shit scared of other teams.

[itzdrk]

Just now, DoingThe42 said:

Scotland are a poor team. Being a man with little to do with my time, I've watched a lot of their recent games. They're a team that plays better against high quality oppostion because of the shape they use, but when it comes to run-of-the-mill games they are basically rubbish and have been getting by by the seat of their pants for a while.

They should have lost in Georgia, Norway should have beaten them home and away but Scotland got exceptionally jammy.

A lot of talk before the tournament was about them being a tough opponent. I got the feeling most people saying this had never watched them play. They're rubbish.

 

[DoingThe42]

2 minutes ago, itzdrk said:

 

It's absolutely fair to say we're also rubbish. But there is no reason for Scotland to play Hungary and not view that as a game we can go and win.

They're rubbish too. We over-estimate and give too much respect to the other sides.

[Father Ted]

We need a coach that can take us to the next level. Clarke has done a good revival job but he isn't capable of taking us further. 

I hope he really proves me wrong in the Nations League group A games coming up next but I seriously doubt it.

He has a cheek branding folks, "negative Norman's". When his tactics are usually the epitome of negativity.

Greece won the Euros, Denmark came off the beach to win it. Wales got to semis, Iceland and even N. Ireland got to knockout stage..

We can do better  than we are.

How many think tanks have we had now? Really it's all down to the SFA and their ineptitude to govern the game properly. Developing nations from the old Eastern bloc are bypassing us now and have been for sometime.

I'd rather lose trying to win from minute one than the dross that was served up last night

[Ya Bezzer!]

27 minutes ago, Groundhopping Adventures said:

The SFA are shit scared of a "foreign" manager after Bertie Vogts. If you only have Scottish managers it will be the same merry-go-round of the same folk who play the same dreadful football who think Scotland are mince because it's always through the lense of comparing us to England. Try something different not someone who will always be negative and think we are rotten. 

Italian managers seem to do pretty well.

Although Steve Clarke said he 'overloaded' the players with information against Germany so I'm not sure Scotland players could handle football tactics as an art form as practiced by Italian coaches and managers.

If you watch Scottish football most teams, literally, without any exaggeration, can't keep a back four in a line.

We are footballing dolts.  The footballing equivalent of an Oxford professor will probably be just as unsuccessful trying to teach these nitwits their a-b-c's.

Edited June 24 by Ya Bezzer!

[FalkirkBairn2021]

1 hour ago, Empty It said:

Even as a Hearts fan watching the Switzerland game in the boozer I was going to strangle the next person to go on about Shankland.

There was a standing ovation in my boozer when Shankland came on which made me wonder 'Have any of you actually seen him play?'

[FalkirkBairn2021]

7 minutes ago, Father Ted said:

We need a coach that can take us to the next level. Clarke has done a good revival job but he isn't capable of taking us further. 

I hope he really proves me wrong in the Nations League group A games coming up next but I seriously doubt it.

He has a cheek branding folks, "negative Norman's". When his tactics are usually the epitome of negativity.

Greece won the Euros, Denmark came off the beach to win it. Wales got to semis, Iceland and even N. Ireland got to knockout stage..

We can do better  than we are.

How many think tanks have we had now? Really it's all down to the SFA and their ineptitude to govern the game properly. Developing nations from the old Eastern bloc are bypassing us now and have been for sometime.

I'd rather lose trying to win from minute one than the dross that was served up last night

For us auld yins,  before the Internet was a thing, it was a running joke in the newspapers about an ongoing root and branch review, I think from Ernie Walker's time, which went on longer than Jarndyce v Jarndyce and never actually delivered anything 

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

If your Auntie had balls she'd be your uncle.

If I was Hungary's manager, here's my post match analysis.

We were great, very patient, we knew their plan and their weaknesses. Chances came and were missed, but I had every confidence we'd get one. We allowed them possession and hit on the break, like we've done in other games.

Which only an absolute moron would accept, given that Hungary created few chances in the game (more than Scotland) and were 45 seconds or so away from their own humiliating exit from the tournament. 

Rossi did not plan to win the game in the 100th minute. Both managers got their game plan wrong and one got bailed out. If the referee gave the penalty (not for me) then that would have bailed Clarke out instead. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

Rossi did not plan to win the game in the 100th minute. . 

You know that, I know that, but I'd still be claiming it if I was him.

[FalkirkBairn2021]

Wildest take so far from the Twitter P&B Thread... oooft

That 'arguably' is doing some amount of heavy lifting 

 

Edited June 24 by FalkirkBairn2021

[FalkirkBairn2021]

10 minutes ago, virginton said:

Which only an absolute moron would accept, given that Hungary created few chances in the game (more than Scotland) and were 45 seconds or so away from their own humiliating exit from the tournament. 

Rossi did not plan to win the game in the 100th minute. Both managers got their game plan wrong and one got bailed out. If the referee gave the penalty (not for me) then that would have bailed Clarke out instead. 

Exactly this. How can anyone be saying Hungary played this masterfully. 

In a must win game they were utter shite against a side that couldn't score in a barrel of fannies. 

They completely fucked it too and got incredibly lucky. 

[TheScarf]

Yep, Hungary are shite too.  People get hard/wet over them because their captain sometimes plays for Liverpool.  

[Arthurlie1981]

I just don’t understand why Clarke stuck McLean to left back. He could have brought on Taylor if he was going to stick with the 4 at the back or just move Hendry back in and go with a 3 and everyone else attacking. 
 

showed me he had completely lost the plot and no idea on a plan B. Also the fact Conway never got on is bordering on criminal. Not saying he would have scored but having more than 1 striker on the pitch at the end might of helped!!

[54_and_counting]

1 hour ago, Elixir said:

We would be better served if more of our squad played abroad in more technical leagues. The Premier League is the best marketed league in the world, but I'm unconvinced it will improve you technically if you're not already gifted in that respect - certainly as much as others anyway. Sure, players born on the continent move there, but many were already brought up learning to love the ball, rather than lump it. Coaches and managers in England, as in Scotland, are also largely dinosaurs in comparison to their continental counterparts.

Spain, Germany, France, holders Italy - all only have a few players in their entire squad who play in England. Portugal buck that trend a bit, admittedly, but again, players like Silva, Fernandes, Jota, Dias would have been raised to play football completely differently to players in Scotland. Technical ability is valued so much more.

Austria only have one player in their squad who plays in England, and it isn't even the Premier League. Similar can be said of nations that should inspire us long-term, like Croatia, and those at this tournament that have completely shown us up, at least performance wise, like Slovakia, Georgia and Albania.

In summary, the Premier League may be a fast-paced, blood and thunder league that is entertaining to watch, but I don't think it prepares you as well as leagues on the continent do for international football, particularly tournaments. It should be noted that England have also suffered from this over the years (decades). Bellingham is their best player and he will almost certainly play most of his career outside the EPL bubble, if not all of it.

I probably fell into the trap of overestimating our current potential based on how many of our strongest eleven when fit play in the Premier League - either for good sides or some of the bigger clubs. As has been covered, Clarke barely played Ferguson pre-injury, and young, promising guys like Doig and Max Johnston haven't even been in the squad yet. The latter would have been an improvement on Ralston, for example.

More players playing in Italy, Germany, Spain, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, etc, and a manager who can get the most out of the squad in front of him would certainly take us further than we are now. We need to encourage more players to be brave and embrace this - it will also improve you as a person as well as a player adapting to new cultures, hopefully learning the language of most of your teammates, ideally not binge drinking and scraning chippies, and so on.

Is there enough will there to be different, however?

Bundesliga x4

2 bundesliga

EPL x2

League 1

Switzerland 

Hungary x2

Thats the leagues of the Hungarian starting line up last night, are we to believe that the 4 bundesliga boys mean that hungary are able to dominate chances as they did

The issue isnt with the players, its the fact clarkes managerial career is spent around simply trying not to lose, annoying opponents with defence minded tactics and then nicking something on the break

The hungary boss clearly looked at scotlands game against the swiss (pointless watching the german game , learn nothing) and seen how clarke loves a counter attack, so he negated that knowing full well scotland had f**k all other ideas