What is the point of labour ?

[Guest Jedi]

Which ones? The Scottish list?

[Guest Jedi]

I reckon Labour have a chance to win the next GE, and hopefully get a 2nd term, so of the next 10 years, could see 6 of them under a Lab govt, after 4 of the Tories. Beyond that, impossible to predict. I get the point that Independence gets rid of Tory govts in Scotland, but also couldn't guarantee that a right wing party wont be in power in Scotland in the next 25 years either.

Is Scotland currently 'doing well' with the list above? (these points are devolved, so not due to Westminster 'control')

[DukDukGoose]

On 20/12/2020 at 13:17, John Lambies Doos said:

Keir Starmer just coming across as a p***k again this morning.

Aye. He made me feel something for Boris that I didn't think was possible. Sympathy.

[Guest Jedi]

The PR versus FPTP is a good question. Given the last AR Referendum was so badly run by the pro side, and shot down, its difficult to see it coming on line anytime soon. However, would love to see a Lab govt pushing it again.

You are not wrong about ephemeral Lab govts, given that they have only been in power for 18 out of the last 50 years. If however a Lab govt in 2024 implemented proper devolution, I dont think the Tories would be able to dismantle it, as they haven't with the Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly etc.

[Granny Danger]

21 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I reckon Labour have a chance to win the next GE, and hopefully get a 2nd term, so of the next 10 years, could see 6 of them under a Lab govt, after 4 of the Tories. Beyond that, impossible to predict. I get the point that Independence gets rid of Tory govts in Scotland, but also couldn't guarantee that a right wing party wont be in power in Scotland in the next 25 years either.

Is Scotland currently 'doing well' with the list above? (these points are devolved, so not due to Westminster 'control')

There is zero evidence to suggest support for a right wing party in Scotland.

[G51]

Keir Hardie is spinning in his grave that his first name is now associated with the ham salad currently running Labour.

[Fullerene]

1 hour ago, MixuFruit said:

Or a shorter question: do you think the English will ever adopt PR instead of FPTP?

There are still too many people in the Labour Party who think that FPTP is a good idea. 

They think it provides an opportunity for a radical 1945 style party to win a landslide victory and change the UK completely.  75 years on, it has not succeeded much on that score.

Even the landslides in 1997 and 2001 were not the sort of Labour Party in power that they had in mind.

[Wee Bully]

1. They have stupid unionists voting for them despite the fact Scotland is going to shit.

2. They think brexit is a good thing for the UK and bring stupid unionists to think the same and

3. They love austerity.

 

1.  Sure is with the highest drugs death rate in Europe, a third of children living in poverty, hospital waiting times not having been met for 7 years, the 3 highest Covid rates in Europe proportionately, a widening educational gap, with PISA league tables not looking good in that one, the largest teachers union having to take out grievances against councils over working conditions, council budgets cut by 7% over the last 7 years, despite only a 2% cut to SG funding,mental health waiting times significantly missed,millions of public money squandered on BiFab,.a First Minister who can't remember if she attended certain meeting about Alex Salmond or not.....still prescriptions are 'free'

2. The same Labour party which was consistently accused by the right wing press of trying to derail Brexit for months, leading to the 'Get Brexit Done' election.

3. Andrew Wilson and his 10 year cutting of public services and funding, and 'prepare to be worse off for the first decade after Independence? sounds like austerity to me. Also Labour are normally accused of mad spending sprees on public services, not sure how that fits an austerity model.

I’ll just pick one bit out of here, as it leaps out.

3rd highest Covid rates in Europe - please show your working.

[Guest Jedi]

'Excess' deaths in relation to Covid...3rd highest on European averages....'working' with charts and graphs. Didnt even mention the care home situation in Scotland as well.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18618596.coronavirus-scotland-third-highest-rate-excess-deaths-europe-england-spain/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54989613

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-in-scotland-country-third-worst-in-europe-for-excess-deathshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54989613-in-pandemic-9ctj9g9pd

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scotland-third-highest-excess-death-22442287

 

 

[Guest Jedi]

Totally agree again on switching to PR as opposed to FPTP, Mixu. Realistically, yes, the best chance to limit Tory influence.

Bully....which other parts of the stats on the SG are 'wrong'?

[Guest Jedi]

Again, I would stress that I am not against Independence as an idea, and I was a member of the SNP for 36 years after all (despite the dismissal of that 'claim' by some).

However, the Growth Commission Report is not for me....the one section I do like is the emphasis on increased immigration for Scotland, as that makes sense. 10 years of cutting public services, to get to the 'magic; 3% figure though.....not to mention the issues I still think we would have in rejoining the EU. Given both of these, it would be  Independent to trade with? under Wilson's prospectus. If we are outside the EU and have to negotiate trading relations with our largest trading partner in England at the same time, all during a period when the economy will take some time to recover from Covid (both Scotland and England).

That's my reasoning for hoping for a proper devolution proposal this time, which I can only see a Lab govt being able to deliver. I can hardly 'switch' from 36 years of wanting Scotland to run our own affairs, to desiring anything less than pretty much FFA, while sharing defence and foreign policy.  Again though, if Labour don't get this right, and its a choice between Independence and the status quo, with nothing else tangible on the table, then obviously I would have to bite the bullet with the Growth Commission, and hope that after a decade we do turn the corner as an Independent nation, back in Europe, and start to get our finances in order.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Jedi

[The_Kincardine]

3 hours ago, NotThePars said:

Nothing like calling at least 45% of the populace "separatists" like you're Chancellor Palpatine to win them back onside

Is there a point I am missing?

At least 45% of the population ARE  "separatists".  Isn't this the entire point of mounting border guards at Gretna?

[John Lambies Doos]

Again, I would stress that I am not against Independence as an idea, and I was a member of the SNP for 36 years after all (despite the dismissal of that 'claim' by some).
However, the Growth Commission Report is not for me....the one section I do like is the emphasis on increased immigration for Scotland, as that makes sense. 10 years of cutting public services, to get to the 'magic; 3% figure though.....not to mention the issues I still think we would have in rejoining the EU. Given both of these, it would be  Independent to trade with? under Wilson's prospectus. If we are outside the EU and have to negotiate trading relations with our largest trading partner in England at the same time, all during a period when the economy will take some time to recover from Covid (both Scotland and England).
That's my reasoning for hoping for a proper devolution proposal this time, which I can only see a Lab govt being able to deliver. I can hardly 'switch' from 36 years of wanting Scotland to run our own affairs, to desiring anything less than pretty much FFA, while sharing defence and foreign policy.  Again though, if Labour don't get this right, and its a choice between Independence and the status quo, with nothing else tangible on the table, then obviously I would have to bite the bullet with the Growth Commission, and hope that after a decade we do turn the corner as an Independent nation, back in Europe, and start to get our finances in order.

As a member of the EU we would not need to negotiate trading terms with England, it would already be done (assuming a deal). And due to the agreed protocol in Ireland, any Scotland/England border shite would just be scaremongering

[Arch Stanton]

2 hours ago, G51 said:

Keir Hardie is spinning in his grave that his first name is now associated with the ham salad currently running Labour.

Starmer won't like that.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

Again, I would stress that I am not against Independence as an idea, and I was a member of the SNP for 36 years after all (despite the dismissal of that 'claim' by some).

However, the Growth Commission Report is not for me....the one section I do like is the emphasis on increased immigration for Scotland, as that makes sense. 10 years of cutting public services, to get to the 'magic; 3% figure though.....not to mention the issues I still think we would have in rejoining the EU. Given both of these, it would be  Independent to trade with? under Wilson's prospectus. If we are outside the EU and have to negotiate trading relations with our largest trading partner in England at the same time, all during a period when the economy will take some time to recover from Covid (both Scotland and England).

That's my reasoning for hoping for a proper devolution proposal this time, which I can only see a Lab govt being able to deliver. I can hardly 'switch' from 36 years of wanting Scotland to run our own affairs, to desiring anything less than pretty much FFA, while sharing defence and foreign policy.  Again though, if Labour don't get this right, and its a choice between Independence and the status quo, with nothing else tangible on the table, then obviously I would have to bite the bullet with the Growth Commission, and hope that after a decade we do turn the corner as an Independent nation, back in Europe, and start to get our finances in order.

Makes me wonder why you were an SNP stalwart all the way through the Blair and Brown era which brought us Holyrood. I'd have thought you would have been a big fan. And why you're now happy to delegate foreign relations and defence policy to Boris and his successors? Takes all sorts I suppose..

Edited December 22, 2020 by welshbairn

[Baxter Parp]

'Excess' deaths in relation to Covid...3rd highest on European averages....'working' with charts and graphs. Didnt even mention the care home situation in Scotland as well.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18618596.coronavirus-scotland-third-highest-rate-excess-deaths-europe-england-spain/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54989613
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-in-scotland-country-third-worst-in-europe-for-excess-deathshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54989613-in-pandemic-9ctj9g9pd
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scotland-third-highest-excess-death-22442287
 
 

1/30th July
2/Graphic: 29th May
3/404 Not Found
4/30th July

[Guest Jedi]

Not an argument that Scots shouldn't govern themselves at all, more a reaction to most things in the SNP world being wonderful.

No government is perfect they all make mistakes.However the SNP as a party remain pretty immune to any polling drop due largely I think to the lack of any effective opposition...something which every parliament in the world needs.

[DA Baracus]

Labour don't want more devolution. Their nonsense about 'devo max' and garbage like 'The Vow' are all just lies. They want Scotland to remain as it is. Their actions show this, such as working with their brethren the Tories up here and squawking the same pish that their Tory pals in Westminster do about the issue. They will never be in a position to 'deliver' it even if they wanted to (they don't).

Pretty astonishing naivety if anyone seriously thinks Labour want more devolution, let alone think that they can deliver it. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by DA Baracus

[doulikefish]

Has this Gordon Brown fellow ever been in a position of power to offer more devolution to jockoland? This time they must be telling the truth....or was it the time before ? Anyway is the House of Lords still a thing im sure that was getting reformed by the red tories aswell that must have happened 

[renton]

10 hours ago, Jedi said:

Again, I would stress that I am not against Independence as an idea, and I was a member of the SNP for 36 years after all (despite the dismissal of that 'claim' by some).

However, the Growth Commission Report is not for me....the one section I do like is the emphasis on increased immigration for Scotland, as that makes sense. 10 years of cutting public services, to get to the 'magic; 3% figure though.....not to mention the issues I still think we would have in rejoining the EU. Given both of these, it would be  Independent to trade with? under Wilson's prospectus. If we are outside the EU and have to negotiate trading relations with our largest trading partner in England at the same time, all during a period when the economy will take some time to recover from Covid (both Scotland and England).

That's my reasoning for hoping for a proper devolution proposal this time, which I can only see a Lab govt being able to deliver. I can hardly 'switch' from 36 years of wanting Scotland to run our own affairs, to desiring anything less than pretty much FFA, while sharing defence and foreign policy.  Again though, if Labour don't get this right, and its a choice between Independence and the status quo, with nothing else tangible on the table, then obviously I would have to bite the bullet with the Growth Commission, and hope that after a decade we do turn the corner as an Independent nation, back in Europe, and start to get our finances in order.

I still don't get why you'd want Scotland to follow the rUK line on defence and foreign policy. Do you not think there are geopolitical differences in how the two would approach the world?