What is the point of labour ?

[Michael W]

Labour are in a deep hole here. 

If you wanted to be charitable, you could say that the Brexit Party's vote (and it was substantial in 2019 ) went straight to the Conservatives. But these are voters that put Brexit above even the party that was trying to deliver it. The referendum has undoubtedly caused a realignment, but these votes ought to be up for grabs. The Tories might be many things, but one thing they are not is stupid - they know how to win elections. They have taken full advantage of the referendum and division to gain support. 

Turn out was low, but it was Labour voters that stayed at home. 

There is also a developing view that Labour doesn't care about "the North" and has taken it for granted, favouring "middle class Londoners". I don't really see where this viewpoint comes from myself, but this defeat will undoubtedly provike a storm or rage and abuse from London-based Remainers calling them stupid, which I'm sure will drive that point home. 

There is probably also a somewhat uncomfortable view that whilst places like Hartlepool might not be fully signed up to Tory economic policies, there is a probably a large part of the population that is socially Conservative. The so-called culture wars won't win friends in places like that. An even more uncomfortable view is that whilst many people think Johnson is an utter clown, is that he is genuinely popular in places like Hartlepool. Trying to understand why is the problem for the ages but Labour need to figure it out and fast. 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Michael W

[Granny Danger]

This is more encouraging.

[Caledonian1]

28 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I don't really understand the glee about this.

I absolutely understand your concern, Monkey Tennis.....these must be very worrying times for you. 

Now that the area is represented by the right wing Tories, the best advice I can offer you is to stay well clear of Hartlepool.........

[ayrmad]

2 minutes ago, Pato said:

Tories now = English nationalists. Most of England thinks of itself as English first, British second. Not much more to  it.

We could maybe hang our hat on their desire for independence rather than depending on Nicola. 

[Blootoon87]

Scottish Labour surely have to have a rethink now. England will vote Tories for the next thousand years.

[Aladdin]

I heard somebody on the wireless the other day suggest that Labour were suffering in the North East as the population apparently blamed the Labour run local authorities for the past decades cuts in public services and not Westminster.

If that's correct, the Tories have played an absolute blinder and Labour's campaigning and communication is worse than I thought.

[flyingscot]

2 minutes ago, Aladdin said:

I heard somebody on the wireless the other day suggest that Labour were suffering in the North East as the population apparently blamed the Labour run local authorities for the past decades cuts in public services and not Westminster.

If that's correct, the Tories have played an absolute blinder and Labour's campaigning and communication is worse than I thought.

I think that would happen. We've also seen campaigning from Tories on that point about being conservative run helps when there is a conservative government.

I do think they probably should have picked a leader from the north not a different branch of North London. One wonders if they still had Ed Milliband there.... 

Edited May 7, 2021 by flyingscot

[ayrmad]

4 minutes ago, Aladdin said:

I heard somebody on the wireless the other day suggest that Labour were suffering in the North East as the population apparently blamed the Labour run local authorities for the past decades cuts in public services and not Westminster.

If that's correct, the Tories have played an absolute blinder and Labour's campaigning and communication is worse than I thought.

I'll maybe start blaming SAC for Ayr being an absolute shite hole and a half. 

[SANTAN]

1 hour ago, sparky88 said:

Exactly. Referendums in general cause political realignments. Labour still seem to be in denial that this has happened. Essentially the Tories copied the SNP's homework by ramping up the nationalism. Voting for the Tories to 'get Brexit done' is like voting for the SNP to 'get independence done'.

 

 

Except Brexit actually won in the referendum where as Indy did not. 

[Monkey Tennis]

33 minutes ago, J_Stewart said:

 

It’s funny because the exact same party had the chance to be a progressive force in British politics, provide a genuine left leaning option for the populace, but instead, knee capped themselves from inside, with the sabotage coming from centristcunts like Starmer. It’s the “you made your bed, filled it with hedgehogs and human faeces, and now I will laugh whilst you lie in it” principle.

 

Yes, but the fate of the individual politicians is far less important than the effect such results have on people. It's a populace without a left leaning option effectively.

I'm struggling to see the humour inherent in that.

[jamamafegan]

This is more encouraging.

That is encouraging tbf. Perhaps the credible opposition of future will be the Greens - but only when Conservative voters second homes on the coast or in the rolling Shropshire countryside are under 10ft of water due to rising sea levels and flooding.

[Michael W]

9 minutes ago, Aladdin said:

I heard somebody on the wireless the other day suggest that Labour were suffering in the North East as the population apparently blamed the Labour run local authorities for the past decades cuts in public services and not Westminster.

If that's correct, the Tories have played an absolute blinder and Labour's campaigning and communication is worse than I thought.

Wonder if the Greens picking up seats in some areas is a manifestation of this? 

[renton]

4 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Except Brexit actually won in the referendum where as Indy did not. 

Why would that change his point?

[G51]

fucking lmao

keith isn’t even going to make it to 2024 before he’s overthrown and replaced by david miliband

 

[SANTAN]

37 minutes ago, J_Stewart said:

 

It’s funny because the exact same party had the chance to be a progressive force in British politics, provide a genuine left leaning option for the populace, but instead, knee capped themselves from inside, with the sabotage coming from centristcunts like Starmer. It’s the “you made your bed, filled it with hedgehogs and human faeces, and now I will laugh whilst you lie in it” principle.

 

Centrists did not lose the last election. Corbyn did 100%. The sabotage existed but he was the main proponent of sabotaging Labour from the inside. 

Delicious irony how the same radical lefties of the party seem to be trying their hardest to bring down Keir whilst also lamenting the sabotage from inside the party during the Corbyn era. 

[GordonS]

58 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

[quote post="14438244" timestamp="1620369362" name="Dunning1874" userid="10614"
Pasokification is actually happening.


Had never heard of that until now. Why is it happening? It’s a sorry state of affairs.

Lots of possible reasons, but for me it mostly boils down to one thing.

At the end of The Big Short, a film about the 2008 financial crisis, one of the characters grasps the consequences - bailing out the banks and years fo austerity. He says "I have a feeling, in a few years people are going to be doing what they always do when the economy tanks. They will be blaming immigrants and poor people."

The right caused the credit crunch and centre left governments did nothing to prevent the bubble that caused it, they have choked off public spending while the rich got massively richer, and then through the media they control they have persuaded the public to blame the wrong people.

[NotThePars]

Heading into Labour HQ this morning with the rest of the boys 

 

[SANTAN]

7 minutes ago, renton said:

Why would that change his point?

Exercising democracy isn't the same driving force as promoting Nationalism.

Take aside the flag waving then Brexit getting completed had a lot of support from people that weren't necessarily keen on Brexit in the first place. This of course can't be said about Indy. 

To actually answer your question, his point of the Tories copying SNP homework is impossible considering the difference in situations. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Stormzy

[Hillonearth]

30 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

It’s no surprise Hartlepool was lost and it shows that we need to GTF out of the UK ASAP. The political landscape in south of the border is totally fucked. It’s hard to imagine anything than a Conservative government for at least the next decade, and even then who is going to step up and offer credible opposition? Labour are finished. They need to start all over again. How long will that recovery take? Will they ever recover? We face a prospect of being tied to a Conservative government for the rest of our days if we cannot secure independence.

My thoughts exactly...first and foremost I want us to have the chance to set our own course as a country, but almost as important is the fact that we're currently chained to a neighbour that's inexorably leaning ever further to the right and through force of numbers is dragging us with it.

As things stand, England's a lost cause. Hartlepool last night:

[Michael W]

6 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Except Brexit actually won in the referendum where as Indy did not. 

The point is that the divisions caused have not gone away. 

Whilst Brexiteer devotion to the Conservatives may indeed dissipate over time now that it's happened, I can't see how it disappears in the short term.