What is the point of labour ?

[strichener]

3 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

On Erdogan and "islamofascism", mentioned above there:

Islamofascism isn't a useful term as it doesn't describe anything concrete we can actually observe in existence. When Chistopher Hitchens popularised it, he was using it as a propaganda term during Bush's War on Terror, which he supported. His American audience didn't know what "salafi jihadists" or even "Islamists" were but they had some idea of what a fascist was so Hitchens just spliced Islam and fascism together as a shortcut for relaying who "the baddies" were. However, a Turkish-Cypriot speaking English as a second language has probably just heard the term, unconnected to the Hitchens context, and thought it can loosely be applied to Erdogan. I'd argue he's wrong but not miles off.

You got Islamic (or maybe better described as just Muslim) fascists in WW2 from among the Bosniak ethnic group: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)). Their Islamic identity was a very specific one wrapped up in Ottoman imperial identity. Erdogan has nothing to do with WW2 Bosniaks but he is often described as "neo-Ottoman". Yet he's also from an Islamist background. You can't get anywhere in mainstream Turkish politics with Islamism so he switched to promoting Islamic identity instead, which stops well short of theocracy. He blends the two, Islamic identity and Ottoman identity, into his own trademark mix.

Turkey has always had a secular fascism. The Grey Wolves group, most famously. Turkish society has done next to no introspection regarding historical Turkish atrocities. Its illegal to even publicly state the Armenian Genocide happened. For example, Hrant Dink was an (ethnic Armenian) Turkish journalist who was murdered by a vigilante while he was on trial for "denigrating Turkishness" in 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Hrant_Dink).

You see this attitude playing out all the time in Turkish militarism. Not just northern Cypurs but also a large chunk of northern Syria are currently under Turkish occupation. You also have the treatment of the Kurds in Turkey as well as the support given to Azerbaijan to kill more Armenians. Turkey was also the largest state supporter of ISIS. Every single foreign recruit to ISIS arrived into Syria via the Turkish border which was deliberately left open. Interceptions were made of radio communications between the Turkish military and ISIS coordinating together how they'd attack Syrian Kurds.

Erdogan has been heading all this shite recently and its true he's applied an Islamic gloss to it which wasn't there previously. However, Turkish establishment malevolence long predates him. The secular elite are as guilty as the Islamic elite. 

Just to be clear, the term was used by a Muslim who also happens to be Cypriot, speaks Turkish and is a retired scholar.  I would guess his day-to-day experiences would make him far more able to determine the appropriateness of the term than you or I.  

Although they are becoming the minority in Occupied Cyprus, the Turkish Cypriots mainly see themselves as Cypriot.  The tension between the two areas has been fostered by the Turkish Authorities encouraging Turks to move to Cyprus and impose their way of life in the Cypriots.  They may share a common language but their cultures are entirely different.  These activities have escalated under Erdoğan whilst at the same time the Turkish economy is being ruined.  Hence why a very well educated man is having to give up his free time to educate ignorant tourists like myself.

Edited May 5 by strichener

[flyingscot]

11 hours ago, BFTD said:

Aye, it's an issue of importance to people who work in London but don't live there and, crucially, don't get a vote. Londoners generally fail to appreciate how stellar their public transport is, but they aren't stupid enough to think their lives would improve by having more cars driving about in the city. I lived there thirty years ago, long before the cyclists took over the roads, and the air quality was horrific during the hot summer months.

The "best watch out because the Muslamics are coming" subtext - which seems to have become overt in recent times - will also have fallen on deaf ears among actual Londoners who live among people of different ethnicities without problems, and will be another "issue" aimed more at Home Counties Tory voters, who still don't get a fucking vote.

Exactly, might be an issue for cab drivers who commute from Essex or Slough into Central London and want to drive as fast as possible round the city, but those who live in inner London are supportive of safer traffic and cleaner air. 
 

Their win in Uxbridge when BoJo left, will have made them think it was right call. They did narrowly win Ealing and Hillingdon which is some of the same area and won other outer areas which might suggest Labour still has some issues with it there but don’t know if it will made a difference in a general election and probably forgotten about next time out. 
 

The Home Counties getting a vote raises its head ever now and again, but no real traction. The Greater London Boundary does have a some weird bits that normal countries would probably expand and fix but that would likely see the council tax go up in those areas so probably happy outside London when it suits them!

[Granny Danger]

Good to see the Labour Party treating the people of this new Scottish Parliamentary constituency with such respect.

A councillor from Canterbury in England has been selected as Labour’s candidate for Angus and Perthshire Glens, it can be revealed.

Elizabeth Carr-Ellis is a Labour councillor for St Stephen’s in Canterbury – over 500 miles from Angus in the South East of England.

But the party has given her its backing to standing for election in the newly formed Westminster constituency.

Currently represented by SNP MP Dave Doogan, the election is expected to be a fight between the nationalists and Conservative candidate Stephen Kerr.

Labour came fourth in the last General Election, securing less than 5% of votes and losing its deposit.

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Good to see the Labour Party treating the people of this new Scottish Parliamentary constituency with such respect.

 

A councillor from Canterbury in England has been selected as Labour’s candidate for Angus and Perthshire Glens, it can be revealed.

Elizabeth Carr-Ellis is a Labour councillor for St Stephen’s in Canterbury – over 500 miles from Angus in the South East of England.

But the party has given her its backing to standing for election in the newly formed Westminster constituency.

Currently represented by SNP MP Dave Doogan, the election is expected to be a fight between the nationalists and Conservative candidate Stephen Kerr.

Labour came fourth in the last General Election, securing less than 5% of votes and losing its deposit.

She works for Hello magazine, so she'll have all the gossip when she goes knocking on doors. Step up from Kirstine Hair.

[Granny Danger]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

She works for Hello magazine, so she'll have all the gossip when she goes knocking on doors. Step up from Kirstine Hair.

Aye, I’m sure she’ll have a tale to tell…

[velo army]

On 04/05/2024 at 22:39, BFTD said:

I lived there thirty years ago, long before the cyclists took over the roads, and the air quality was horrific during the hot summer months.

 

Off topic, but after the 7/7 bombings cycling in London went up by about 250%. The lads on the cycling forum I was part of would always refer to these nouveau cyclistes as "bomb dodgers" and could be identified by generally being clueless about riding on the roads and were ironically safer on a potentially bombable tube train.

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

A former Tory MP introduces the next Tory chancellor.

 

[JS_FFC]

It could just be the Labour spin doctors at play here but the consensus seems to be that the lost votes over Gaza doesn’t matter because Labour has whomping majorities in the seats with big Muslim populations whereas they did better than expected in the marginal bellwether areas. FPTP for you.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

8 hours ago, Sherrif John Bunnell said:

A former Tory MP introduces the next Tory chancellor.

 

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."  

[MacDuffman]

2 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."  

Know the Tories the man is the one fucking the pig.

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

Vote SLAB to stop Scotland having nice things.

This is Fatty Foulkes' wet dream.

 

 

[Granny Danger]

6 minutes ago, Sherrif John Bunnell said:

Vote SLAB to stop Scotland having nice things.

This is Fatty Foulkes' wet dream.

 

 

Back in the day the Workers Education Association, which was heavily allied to the Labour Party, used the saying ‘If You Think Education Is Expensive, Try Ignorance’ as their motto.

We may well find out the price of ignorance if Labour wins at Holyrood.

 

[JS_FFC]

Conservative MP Natalie Elphicke crosses the floor to join Labour 

[MazzyStar]

4 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."  

George Orwell was a c**t 

[doulikefish]

20 minutes ago, JS_FFC said:

Conservative MP Natalie Elphicke crosses the floor to join Labour 

Welcome Comrade

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11368897/NATALIE-ELPHICKE-Left-admit-no-refugee-crisis-simply-illegal-immigration.html

[Salt n Vinegar]

Just now, doulikefish said:

Welcome Comrade

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11368897/NATALIE-ELPHICKE-Left-admit-no-refugee-crisis-simply-illegal-immigration.html

Hardly surprising that some Tories feel at home on the Labour benches though, is it?

[Granny Danger]

10 minutes ago, doulikefish said:

Welcome Comrade

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11368897/NATALIE-ELPHICKE-Left-admit-no-refugee-crisis-simply-illegal-immigration.html

The intro to her former husband’s Wiki entry is class.

Charles Brett Anthony Elphicke^[2] (born 14 March 1971) is a former British politician, former solicitor and convicted sex offender

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

It's some laugh that Starmer is merrily accepting MPs who would be on the right of the Reform Party.

[DrewDon]

[invergowrie arab]

Elphicke voted for restrictions on Trade Union activities as well all her other horrible anti-migrant, anti-environmental, anti-civil liberty voting record.

How can an MP who wouldn't pass vetting to stand for a party defect to them.