10 Years Ago

[Black_and_White_Stripes]

8 hours ago, Enigma said:

With hindsight some form of “devo-max”, full fiscal autonomy, should have been on the ballot as a second question.

How would that have worked in practice, though? Aren't referendums usually binary - yes/no - questions?

What if you ended up with 40% voting to remain, 35% voting for 'devo-max' and 25% voting for independence? Who would have won? The remain vote would've been the biggest choice, but the collective devo-max and indy vote would have been larger. I suspect preference voting would have been too difficult for many, and would've opened a can of worms, too.

As for another referendum, I think it would be silly for nationalists to endorse another referendum whilst the Labour Party governs the UK. The Tories are far more unpopular and their governance emphasises the democratic deficiency of the Union - that Scotland's often governed by a Westminster party that has very little support north of the border.

Timing is crucial. 

[Granny Danger]

The whole ‘devo max’ argument is a nonsense.  Anything less that full fiscal autonomy, which only comes with Independence, still makes Scotland dependent upon the UK.

Also Starmer has already shown his contempt for our devolved Parliament by handing Ian Murray a sum of money to do what he wants whilst cutting the money the Scottish Parliament was getting for WFA.  That shows how easy it is for a UK prime minister to bypass the devolved Scottish Parliament, ‘devo max ‘ wouldn’t change that.

 

[Lex]

5 hours ago, Groundhopping Adventures said:

Have done a bit of reflection recently.

I think Salmond's ego f**ked it. He never came up with economic arguments that Unionists couldn't bat away. Alistair Darling was a very effective campaigner despite being one of the most boring people ever to live. A steady pair of hands is exactly what the No side needed and he provided this.

Completely disagree with this. I thought the Better Together campaign was an absolute disaster, and the figures back this up. Before campaigning started support for independence ranged between 35% and 40% in most polling. It got over 45% in the vote, and this was a direct result of the YES campaign being better run and organised than the Better Together one. Salmond and Sturgeon were much better campaigners than Darling and Murphy et all. 

Looking back on that I think the main reason the Better Together campaign was so poor was complacency. Most unionist politicians (including David Cameron who effectively called the referendum) thought it would be a resounding victory for the union, and the lack of energy in the summer of 2014 was reflective of this. They didn't think they had to do anything. A more energetic better together campaign and the result would have been comfortably 60%+ NO. It ended up much closer than it should have been - if a 380,000+ winning vote margin can be considered close.

The country was bitterly divided in the years before and after, but there's definitely been a sense of moving on from it in the last year or two. Personified by no one better than SNP leader and avowed ' nationalist gradualist' John Swinney. He's a clever man and he knows that there is no realistic route to Scottish independence in his political career, so he's stopped talking about it.

With their recent Westminster electoral tanking and the SNP looking almost certain to lose the pro-indy majority at Holyrood in 2026, the serious conversation is all but over. They couldn't get a second referendum when they had Scottish majorities in both parliaments, they certainly won't get one when they have majorities in neither. 

The vast majority of Scots have moved on, and the country is better off as a result. 

[Black_and_White_Stripes]

I've got an interest in Irish history, and it's interesting to see how the independence movement took off there. Obviously, there are big differences - Irish independence was partly inspired by the historical persecution of Catholics by the British state (and particularly Cromwell); the Famine was a stark reminder of the indifference to, or even contempt towards, the Irish people, and saw the population decimated; Irish Republicanism was revolutionary and the martyrs of 1916 in particular galvanised the movement.

However, what lots of people forget is that nationalists emphasised and romanticised Irish culture and language, known as the Gaelic Revival. In particular the Gaelic Athletic Association and the Irish language were heavily promoted, along with socialist politics and the Catholic Church (which was particularly important to De Valera). We live in a very different world now, but still, I wonder whether similar things can be done in Scotland with Gaelic* and, erm, shinty? 

What is the purpose of Scottish independence? Is for economic purposes? A vehicle to establish a socialist Republic? To re-assert Scottish identity? Simply self-government, because the British state has had its day and is no longer necessary or relevant? To re-join the EU?

I suspect most people have their own vision of what an independent Scotland would be and it's currently an umbrella movement that encompasses lots of disparate groups.

 

* It seems to me, and it is only my opinion, that whilst lots of Gaelic speakers are nationalists, some aren't and would be annoyed by the politicisation of the language.

[Leith Green]

Ten years has gone in a flash.

The country is definitely not "better together", and while Independence would not have been a cakewalk we would probably have been emerging into a better place about now.

However, here we are -

We are now a resource rich country, but will continue to have large parts of its population in relative and actual poverty, some awful housing and transport infrastructure thats only any good if you live in the central belt.

Allied to that, we have been dragged out of Europe and the UK and Scottish economies are consequently smaller and poorer.

Scotlands renewable energy resources? They will continue to benefit "the wider UK" and bizarrely keep energy bills high in the very country that is de facto self sufficient in Electricity - its "Black Gold MK II".

Its no surprise that there are no electricity interconnectors going directly from Scotland to Europe - Westminster needs to keep us in line.

A Labour Govt in Westminster who are (if anything) even more opposed to Independence than the Tories and the shambles of a governing party up here will mean we have no chance of another referendum anyway.

But its not all Westminsters fault - we have a governing party (SNP) which is a f**king shambles - and Alba seen as a bunch of bampots. 

Frankly, we shot ourselves in the foot and pretty much proved the Westminster point that Scotland doesnt have the intellectual capacity* among its politicians to run a country all by itself.

It was horrible going into the GE and voting SNP when I knew it was pointless and I would - again wake up to the moon faced kunt Ian Murray as my MP.

 

 

*I dont believe this, but - by christ - some of those in the SNP govt I wouldnt allow to run a bowling club.

[Big Rider]

10 years on our Energy Bills are through the roof and we are out of the EU. 

Did Yes win?

[HTG]

Broken record time. Given the Supreme Court ruling (pursued by the SNP) which confirmed Westminster has sole authority on whether a further referendum can be called, what is the legal route? 

People, including Alex Salmond, are noisy when it comes to saying the SNP are not doing enough and are too focused on other things. 

What I've yet to hear from anyone is how they'd get an independence referendum launched which would be recognised by foreign governments. 

The UK govt is absolutely shiting itself at the prospect of another referendum so will never give permission for it. 

What should Scotland and the people of Scotland do?

[scottsdad]

Reflecting back, my biggest memories are about conversations I had with friend and family. My parents were completely undecided until pretty much the last minute, and voted Yes. They did so having heard that me, my wife, and some of their neighbours who had young kids, mortgages, families, etc. were willing to "risk" it. 

I remember also my (now estranged) in-laws sitting us down and telling us candidly that if Yes won, they'd move to England. If I could have voted Yes twice I would have done. 

It was a long campaign and I prefer to remember the positives. At no point had the Scottish electorate been better engaged or more informed. A few wingnuts on either side took it too far but for the vast majority it was the only time in their life they had ever been asked a question of such magnitude. People knew everything, both sides of the argument, and made an informed choice. 

That said, in 2014 we'd had 4 prime ministers in 35 years, had been EU members for over 40 years; no signs of the utter lunacy that came in the 10 years since. 6 prime ministers, Brexit, wars in Ukraine and the Middle East, Trump...worldwide the last 10 years have been batshit politically. And the UK perhaps saw the biggest and sharpest decline from moderate democracy to populist basketcase. 

[Lex]

38 minutes ago, HTG said:

Broken record time. Given the Supreme Court ruling (pursued by the SNP) which confirmed Westminster has sole authority on whether a further referendum can be called, what is the legal route? 

 

There isn't any. The UK Supreme Court ruled that the Scottish Parliament does not have the power to legislate on the UK constitution - unsurprisingly. The only legal route to one is a referendum bill being voted through by Westminster, as it was prior to 2014.

There is zero chance of that happening in the foreseeable future.  Looked at one point like the SNP might call an illegal one ala Catalonia - there was an even a date for October 2023 -  but that got quickly shelved when they realised it would be boycotted by unionists and any 'result' would be quickly disregarded. As the Catalonian one was.

[Richey Edwards]

I voted Yes in 2014 and will do again if/when the opportunity arises.

Brexit and the succession of useless/downright malignant far-right Westminster governments (that Scotland didn't vote for) have only strengthened the case for Scotland being independent. 

Disappointingly the SNP in the past decade have done absolutely f**k all of substance to capitalise on these. Their losses in the recent general election were richly deserved.

[Ooooft.]

10 years a go, my daughter was just learning to walk and I remember her toddling unsteadily round the polling station with me and her mum as we voted. I was full of optimism about getting my wee lassie an independent country to grow up in. 10 years later my daughter is thriving - but our country isn’t. 
Hopefully in her lifetime! 

[AndyM]

I was open-minded enough to listen to both sides initially, but the Better Together campaign was one of the most dismal things I've ever witnessed. Spending its time trying to scare pensioners and telling them their pensions were at risk in an Independent Scotland. The fact that 10 years on, everything that Better Together came out with turned out to be absolute bullshit should surprise nobody. The Neo-Nazi rally in George Square on September 15 was another embarrassment.

On a personal level, I did laugh at the guy in the No Thanks vest who canvassed my formidable Yes voting mum saying desperately, "Ye'll no get to watch Strictly Come Dancing," and she responded, "Away and don't talk shite! Get lost idiot".  Not so good was the ugly family fallout between my Mrs and her Daily Record reading father, who instead of saying "vote for whoever you like" called her a "stupid wee lassie" and worse for being pro-Indy. His angry thick-headed stupidity cost him 2 years of not seeing his grandkids. His choice.  

But what was never in doubt was that with independence would come a hell of a lot of work to build things up. Salmond was unconvincing (especially on currency), and too much of the focus was on him when there were much better grassroots campaigns, like Women For Indy and Hope Over Fear. The legacy of some of these is that a younger generation is much more optimistic about Independence.  One day, they will have their say but I do believe we are 20-30 years away from that.

 

[SandyCromarty]

3 hours ago, Leith Green said:

Ten years has gone in a flash.

The country is definitely not "better together", and while Independence would not have been a cakewalk we would probably have been emerging into a better place about now.

However, here we are -

We are now a resource rich country, but will continue to have large parts of its population in relative and actual poverty, some awful housing and transport infrastructure thats only any good if you live in the central belt.

Allied to that, we have been dragged out of Europe and the UK and Scottish economies are consequently smaller and poorer.

Scotlands renewable energy resources? They will continue to benefit "the wider UK" and bizarrely keep energy bills high in the very country that is de facto self sufficient in Electricity - its "Black Gold MK II".

Its no surprise that there are no electricity interconnectors going directly from Scotland to Europe - Westminster needs to keep us in line.

A Labour Govt in Westminster who are (if anything) even more opposed to Independence than the Tories and the shambles of a governing party up here will mean we have no chance of another referendum anyway.

But its not all Westminsters fault - we have a governing party (SNP) which is a f**king shambles - and Alba seen as a bunch of bampots. 

Frankly, we shot ourselves in the foot and pretty much proved the Westminster point that Scotland doesnt have the intellectual capacity* among its politicians to run a country all by itself.

It was horrible going into the GE and voting SNP when I knew it was pointless and I would - again wake up to the moon faced kunt Ian Murray as my MP.

 

 

*I dont believe this, but - by christ - some of those in the SNP govt I wouldnt allow to run a bowling club.

Courage mon Brave, the road is long.

[SandyCromarty]

20 minutes ago, AndyM said:

I was open-minded enough to listen to both sides initially, but the Better Together campaign was one of the most dismal things I've ever witnessed. Spending its time trying to scare pensioners and telling them their pensions were at risk in an Independent Scotland. The fact that 10 years on, everything that Better Together came out with turned out to be absolute bullshit should surprise nobody. The Neo-Nazi rally in George Square on September 15 was another embarrassment.

On a personal level, I did laugh at the guy in the No Thanks vest who canvassed my formidable Yes voting mum saying desperately, "Ye'll no get to watch Strictly Come Dancing," and she responded, "Away and don't talk shite! Get lost idiot".  Not so good was the ugly family fallout between my Mrs and her Daily Record reading father, who instead of saying "vote for whoever you like" called her a "stupid wee lassie" and worse for being pro-Indy. His angry thick-headed stupidity cost him 2 years of not seeing his grandkids. His choice.  

But what was never in doubt was that with independence would come a hell of a lot of work to build things up. Salmond was unconvincing (especially on currency), and too much of the focus was on him when there were much better grassroots campaigns, like Women For Indy and Hope Over Fear. The legacy of some of these is that a younger generation is much more optimistic about Independence.  One day, they will have their say but I do believe we are 20-30 years away from that.

 

I'm sure many Yes voters faced the same formidable lies that the Better Together baying mob promoted, represented in Scotland by Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, Jim Murphy, Ruth Davidson, Kezia Dugdale, Willie Rennie and Annabel Goldie, Jackie Baillie.

Of them only Baillie still survives in frontline politics.

We will come again for sure, the Independence desire is still alive.

 

 Annabel Goldie, Willie Rennie and Kezia Dugdale 

 Annab, Willie Rennie and Kezia Dugdale 

[Miguel Sanchez]

I think I only watched this the once at the time, I didn't realise she actually does say "eat your cereal"

[carpetmonster]

22 minutes ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

I think I only watched this the once at the time, I didn't realise she actually does say "eat your cereal"

First time I’ve seen it; I’ve seen the pic of your wumman and obviously I’ve seen the meme, but I didn’t realise someone had actually put it in a script; I figured it was either a catchall for ‘quiet down, Jocky’ or it had been coined by some daft tart like Foulkes with his ‘yes, but they’re doing it on purpose’ 

[GallowayBlue]

The not accepting the result schtick has been shown for the nonsense it is by Trump who demonstrated what that actually means...

[Granny Danger]

6 minutes ago, GallowayBlue said:

The not accepting the result schtick has been shown for the nonsense it is by Trump who demonstrated what that actually means...

Who refused to accept the result?

[GallowayBlue]

3 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Who refused to accept the result?

That's the point I was trying to make (maybe badly) between bites of my lunch!

People say that the yes side didn't accept the result, but that is clearly nonsense when Donald Trump has demonstrated what not accepting a result actually looks like.

Nobody could seriously say the SNP or Yes side haven't accepted the result given we now have a very prominent example of what that actually means 

Edited yesterday at 15:52 by GallowayBlue

[AndyM]

44 minutes ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

I think I only watched this the once at the time, I didn't realise she actually does say "eat your cereal"

Assume she was an actress? If so I guess she's not had much work since that dismal advert.