Rugby Union

[The_Kincardine]

10 minutes ago, Kejan said:

A few fellow proddie Ulstermen to support?

Shhhhh...I thought I'd got away with it.

[Radford]

Thought the performance against Ireland was far worse than today, against a good Japanese performance. Obviously there are criticisms that can be levelled at the players and coaching staff but it isn't the embarrassment that some are making out. 

Do agree though that the SRU need to evaluate whether Townsend is the man they see leading the squad going into the next World Cup. They were fortunate with the group they got in 2015 but will need to be capable of beating a fellow tier one nation if they are to progress in France. Think we've done that once at a World Cup, Ireland in 1991? His first two years were really positive but can't get away from fact that 2019 has been poor; one win in seven tier one games and the defeat today. 

Jamie Ritchie was very good but he has to build on it. How many back rows have we seen over the years who burst onto the scene but don't ever really match those early expectations? Appreciate injuries have done for a few of them. 

It'll be a different Scotland without Laidlaw but it's an exciting prospect. 

Really looking forward to all four last eight matches. 

[S7C]

20 minutes ago, Radford said:

Thought the performance against Ireland was far worse than today, against a good Japanese performance. Obviously there are criticisms that can be levelled at the players and coaching staff but it isn't the embarrassment that some are making out. 

Do agree though that the SRU need to evaluate whether Townsend is the man they see leading the squad going into the next World Cup. They were fortunate with the group they got in 2015 but will need to be capable of beating a fellow tier one nation if they are to progress in France. Think we've done that once at a World Cup, Ireland in 1991? His first two years were really positive but can't get away from fact that 2019 has been poor; one win in seven tier one games and the defeat today. 

Jamie Ritchie was very good but he has to build on it. How many back rows have we seen over the years who burst onto the scene but don't ever really match those early expectations? Appreciate injuries have done for a few of them. 

It'll be a different Scotland without Laidlaw but it's an exciting prospect. 

Really looking forward to all four last eight matches. 

I think Townsend has the 6 Nations to show a noticeable improvement. 

If not he's done.

[Enigma]

Given that it’s Sumo with a ball it’s not surprising they’re good.

New Zealand better watch out for the Mongolians when they cotton on to this.

[Snobot]

5 hours ago, GAD said:

Second half felt like a bit if a watershed, a changing of the guard if you like. Guys like Horne, Fagerson, Ritchie and Cummings stepped up where their more experienced counterparts failed. I expect Hutchison will be a starter come the 6 nations as well. Townsend might be done as well. A disappointing end for sure, but at least we went out on the pitch.

Totally agree. Cummings brings so much more to the game than Gilchrist. Thought Jonny Gray had a great game too.

As much as I like Laidlaw and what leadership he has brought to the team, it is going to be a completely different team with Horne at 9 and much more suited to our strengths.
 

In retrospect, Townsend picked the wrong squad and was too loyal to some players who were not in form or coming back from injury. Guys like Hutchinson may not ultimately have made a difference but I was impressed by the physicality and commitment in the 2nd half which is exactly what we need if we are going to compete in the 6N.

[come on shire]

Finn did well for his try but that's it. Too self indulgent and the error at the start made me swear on the Sabbath.

Japan were excellent but from a Scottish perspective we didn't get in gear till the 2nd half when we've conceded a 4th try. It's an 80mins game. 1st half was dreadful. We didn't deal with their quick play, offered too much space to their rapid players and gave away penalties to invite pressure in our 22.

Too late but Fagerson (when he came on) and Nel were excellent and got tries. A bright sign's the back row. Thomson, Ritchie and Bradbury are solid. I mind when our best back row was Brown, Beattie and Strockosch

My 2nd row's Gray and Cummings. Gilchrist is a penalty machine like Jim Hamilton before.

Give Toony the 6N. The talent's there but the work-on's discipline and psychology. Mistakes happen but he banged on about getting ready for months then play like they're not up for it vs Ireland. Then there's the 1st half today, away in the 6N, France away this summer and the defeat in the USA.

I can't remember who said Ireland in '91, but our last WC win vs a Tier 1 nation was Italy in '07.

Also, the admins closed down the Scottish Rugby Forum on FB for a day or so due to the comments being posted during/after the game. Take from that what you will...

 

[HibeeJibee]

Hats-off to Japan. It doesn't seem that long ago (10yrs?) since we put over 100pts past them at McDiarmid Park.

Incidentally surely this is an argument to expand the Rugby Championship to 6 - maybe USA being #6. How are Japan to sustain and build on this if they have to spend the next 4yrs back in Asia-Pacific competition?

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

Thinking back over Townsend's spell as coach, the first thing that comes to mind is that it's been a sequence of half-cooked performances......both within games such as yesterday, and in the sense of playing well in one game then being awful in the next.

He's really struggled to get consistency from the team through a series of games and more often than not within the whole 80 minutes. 

I compared his record with that of Vern Cotter and I was surprised to see that they're pretty similar. Both have around a 53% winning ratio as Scotland coach, and if anything Townsend's record against countries like France, England and the Aussies is more impressive (we really need to start competing against Ireland and Wales though).

I suppose though that Cotter took a team that was awful and really improved it. He then handed that team over to Townsend, and it's hard to say that he's continued the improvement.....if anything, with arguably a better squad of players, the best argument that could be put forward for him is that we've stood still.

We're less than 4 months away from the 6 Nations, so there'll be no change of coach at this moment. However, we have to improve.....especially in Cardiff and Dublin. 

If not, I would imagine that the SRU are looking at the job Richard Cockerill has done at Edinburgh, and will look to move him into the Scotland job. 

 

 

 

[Mark Connolly]

8 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Hats-off to Japan. It doesn't seem that long ago (10yrs?) since we put over 100pts past them at McDiarmid Park.

Incidentally surely this is an argument to expand the Rugby Championship to 6 - maybe USA being #6. How are Japan to sustain and build on this if they have to spend the next 4yrs back in Asia-Pacific competition?

15 years. November 2004 IIRC.

Been thinking more about it. and I'm even more annoyed. Japan basically played the game that we played 20-30 years ago. Hit the ball at pace, ruck like your life depends on it, and repeat until the defence are knackered. They worked their arses off to ensure they were in support for offload or clearout, and got the rewards. Even when we got going in the 2nd half, it was't at the same pace or intensity.

The general thought seems to be that Toony will get the 6N. Given how young the team that finished the game yesterday was, I'd be willing to go with that, as long as we get a nasty b*****d forwards coach in beside him. Danny Wilson has actually taken them backwards from where that shitehawk Humphreys had them.

[John Lambies Doos]

Cotter as head coach, Corkerhill or Robinson as forwards coach.

[GAD]

I've always liked Townsend, but I just don't see how things are going to progress under him now. Since 2015 we've been building for this, and while the 6 nations is important, there was big unfinished business with the world cup after last time and it's been a huge disappointment.

I think there will be big changes over the next year. If they haven't already I expect Laidlaw and Barclay will retire. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see some of Seymour, Maitland, Taylor, Wilson and Nel follow them. It's a rebuilding job for sure, but we have some decent young players coming through and we've got guys like Kebble and the big Edinburgh winger coming in. We need to get the right attitude and the right game plan in, and we need to pick our best players regardless of reputation or experienced. I still don't think we are a shite team, but it's getting harder and harder to make that claim.

[John Lambies Doos]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby-world-cup-2019/2019/1014/1083242-hansen-pleased-to-avoid-hosts-japan-in-quarter-final/

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[DeeTillEhDeh]

15 years. November 2004 IIRC. Been thinking more about it. and I'm even more annoyed. Japan basically played the game that we played 20-30 years ago. Hit the ball at pace, ruck like your life depends on it, and repeat until the defence are knackered. They worked their arses off to ensure they were in support for offload or clearout, and got the rewards. Even when we got going in the 2nd half, it was't at the same pace or intensity.

The general thought seems to be that Toony will get the 6N. Given how young the team that finished the game yesterday was, I'd be willing to go with that, as long as we get a nasty b*****d forwards coach in beside him. Danny Wilson has actually taken them backwards from where that shitehawk Humphreys had them.

 

I found our game plan bizarre - instead of drive and ruck and getting quick ball we slowed it up by going in to the maul and trying to drive forward - far too slowly. 

When we did decide to drive and ruck it was in ones and twos - Japanese back row were just eating up the driver.

 

 

 

[GAD]

Worst thing about yesterday was despite the shite first half and the aimless kicking, and lack of all round strategy, it really was a game we didn't need to lose. 3rd try was a bit of fucking atrocious game management when the aim should have been to get off the the pitch 14-7 down and regroup, and the 4th was absolute amateur hour getting stripped like that. Japan were good, but Scotland were our own worst enemies again.

[Salvo Montalbano]

Hats-off to Japan. It doesn't seem that long ago (10yrs?) since we put over 100pts past them at McDiarmid Park.

Incidentally surely this is an argument to expand the Rugby Championship to 6 - maybe USA being #6. How are Japan to sustain and build on this if they have to spend the next 4yrs back in Asia-Pacific competition?

You'd like to think so but World Rugby work at glacial pace. I'd like to see a rule that any Tier 1 nation touring the opposite hemisphere have to play at least two full-cap tests against Tier 2 or lower nations as part of that tour. So NZ, Australia or South Africa would have to play Georgia or Romania or Russia or whatever before coming to the UK/France, Home Nations going there need to play Japan or one of the Pacific Islands nations, or Namibia or Kenya (do they play 15s? They seem decent in 7s) of going to South Africa; Uruguay, Canada or the USA before going to Argentina (which should be a more regular thing than it currently is). At least then everyone gets games against at least some of the big names every year, and the 6 Nations 2 or whatever can maybe come later if Georgia, Romania et al prove their worth.

[aDONisSheep]

It is with a heavy heart, that I write this.

Cards on the table I have fallen back in love with the Scottish Rugby team, over the past 6 years.  Even after these latest set-backs, I can see glimmers of light, whereas before Stern-Vern there was only darkness.

But where to start?

The pack.  Regarding the front three, not since the days of Tom Smith packing down with the likes of Burnell and Bulloch have I had as much confidence in our scrum.  Much of that kudos goes to Nel.  I fear for the day he retires.  IMHO he has been the biggest influence on our pack.

The locks, once again I have high hopes.  Jonnie Gray is a tackling machine, Richie Gray is back playing, so hopefully he'll feel the pull of the blue jersey sooner rather than later.  Sam Skinner is an immense talent and could probably even be a future No. 8.  Cummings looked the real deal.  There is much promise there.

The back row;  It sounds like I'm bigging them up, but I genuinely think we have a lot of talent and competition for flankers, but...  I think we need a proper ball carrying No 8.  Wales can boast Faleteu, Moriarty & most recently Navidi, England have Vunipola (obviously) but can also call on the likes of Wilson, Armand, Morgan and others.  Scotland has Bradbury and erm...

To the backs;  Scrum half;  I think we've seen a changing of the guard.  Now I believe George Horne is the answer for a couple of reasons;  1)  He likes a quick game (which is what Townsend is trying to create).  He is another attacking option, which takes a bit of pressure off Russell.

The downside is, I don't know who Scotland's most dependable kicker would be in Laidlaw's absence?  (and that will cost us games, see Kenny Logan who was a decent kicker but was no Parks, Patterson or Laidlaw).

Fly half;  Finn (who I love), being pushed by Hastings.  I know a lot of people were ragging on Russell for his performance v Japan, but apart from kicking a bit better, I'm not sure what options he had on...  which brings me to where I think our biggest problems are...

Inside and Outside centres;  I think we need a 'unit' to take the ball into contact and someone more creative to take some of the decision making responsibility.  I had hoped that Alex Dunbar would have been fit enough to take to the WC (but he hasn't had the playing time), Could Duhan van der Merwe (once he's had salt and sauce) come in and fill that role?   Don't get me wrong, I like Taylor, Johnson, Jones et al but I just feel that they are all 'line runners' and not 'bash' players.   

I thought Scotland started to get a measure of Japan when the back row started to appear wider out and running at their midfield (had we had a Jamie Roberts a Tuilagi or Aki, I think the result might have been very different).

As for the additional playmaker, I'm not sure who the alternatives are at all!  (Matt Scott is the type of player I'm thinking about, but he must be getting on now), I like Peter Horne, but he's just not top class international standard.

Wings:  Darcy Graham is the future (see also Duhan van der Merwe), but on the whole I think we have quite a few good but not exceptional wingers (I'd almost be tempted to start with Kinghorn).

Full back; Hogg and Kinghorn are both very good IMHO.  But we need to work out how we get Hogg more involved when the opposition aren't kicking the ball to him.

In summary Scotland went out because we were the third best team in the group, but Ireland apart, we weren't as outclassed as some would have you believe.

We'll never have the playing pool of an England or even a Wales, but we can achieve more than we have.

Yours

aDONis

[cyderspaceman]

Not as upset with going out  as I would have been with 0-0 and no match. Japan deserved their win. 

Just one niggle concerning TMO.  In the build up to Japan's first try there was what looked like a forward pass and in Scotlands 3rd try, ditto.

The ref didn't seem to want to use TMO whereas the Welshman , Nigel Owens, seems to just LOVE it. 

TMO, VAR, has to be used consistently.

[cyderspaceman]

2 hours ago, aDONisSheep said:

It is with a heavy heart, that I write this.

Cards on the table I have fallen back in love with the Scottish Rugby team, over the past 6 years.  Even after these latest set-backs, I can see glimmers of light, whereas before Stern-Vern there was only darkness.

We'll never have the playing pool of an England or even a Wales, but we can achieve more than we have.

Yours

aDONis

There are more of us than the Welsh.   I realise rugby is their main sport, almost like a religion (like football used to be with us) so maybe getting more Scots to play the game is the answer. The rugby certainly has a brighter outlook than the fitba' at present.  

[cyderspaceman]

On 13/10/2019 at 18:33, The_Kincardine said:

Strange.  I'd always support Ireland over England when it comes to rugby.

GAD's post didn't make sense to me.

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

I read Tom English's article on the BBC website and was astonished to learn that in our last 15 games we've conceded something like 40+ tries. I don't know why I was astonished, but I was.

Obviously there's something drastically wrong with our defensive set up, and the SRU should start their analysis of the world cup by emptying out Matt Taylor and Dan McFarland....any international defensive coach who's side concedes an average of 3 tries a game should be gone, pronto. 

Our forwards have also gone soft as shite. They look like nice guys who would help wee auld women across the road, but what we want and need are a pack of throat stamping, cocaine snorting, mad as f**k mental cases that are willing to kill and be killed for the jersey they pull on (all within the laws of the game of course).

One of the few highlights of yesterday was Jamie Ritchie preparing to grab half the Japanese team by the throat and show them that he wouldn't take any shit. It's hard to remember the last time we saw real aggression from anyone in a Scotland team that must be the cuddliest in world rugby.

The passion, aggression and determination we showed in the last 20 minutes yesterday was what we need to see from the whole team from the 1st minute in Dublin in a few months time....no feckin hanging around waiting for the game to come to them and then finding ourselves 14 points down after 10 minutes. 

Get rid of Taylor and McFarland and give Townsend another 5 games to prove that he can put out a fit, determined, aggressive, concentrated team that will be focused and hard as steel from the first whistle.

If he can't do that, then it's bye bye Toony.