Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran)

[welshbairn]

Labour governments have expanded settlements in the West Bank just as much as Likud and their lunatic pals, deliberately making any 2 state solution unviable. I don't see anything antisemitic in saying Israel bombed a church housing displaced Palestinians today, instead of saying the Israeli Government, or the Israeli Airforce under the orders of the Israeli Government.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

7 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Labour governments have expanded settlements in the West Bank just as much as Likud and their lunatic pals, deliberately making any 2 state solution unviable. I don't see anything antisemitic in saying Israel bombed a church housing displaced Palestinians today, instead of saying the Israeli Government, or the Israeli Airforce under the orders of the Israeli Government.

Labor are pretty much irrelevant these days - 3.69% in the last election.

[Freedom Farter]

Quite a funny clip. Biden from earlier this year and from back in 1986 saying the same thing both times.

Then I found this to be a decent explanation of why he might say it: https://theconversation.com/biden-says-the-u-s-would-have-to-invent-an-israel-if-it-didnt-exist-why-210172

Nation states pursue national interests and those interests don't always square up neatly with ethical concerns. Everyone knows that but attempts are made to obfuscate it sometimes.

[oneteaminglasgow]

19 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Labor are pretty much irrelevant these days - 3.69% in the last election.

It does demonstrate that deeply problematic policies towards Palestine and Palestinians are not solely contained with the political sphere of Netanyahu et al though. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Of course the current administration are far right wingnuts, they are simply accelerating the direction of travel and the program whilst saying the quiet bits out loud.

Settlements have quadrupled since Oslo, conditions for Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank have also deteriorated since then.

[Guest DannyBlue]

41 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I don't see anything antisemitic in saying Israel bombed a church housing displaced Palestinians today, instead of saying the Israeli Government, or the Israeli Airforce under the orders of the Israeli Government.

Of course, it's not. When people said Scotland played France, nobody expected the entire population of both countries to be on the pitch. It's just a convenient shorthand of language that in context makes sense. Conversation would become unnecessarily tedious if people had to constantly qualify every word they use.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

21 minutes ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

Of course the current administration are far right wingnuts, they are simply accelerating the direction of travel and the program whilst saying the quiet bits out loud.

Settlements have quadrupled since Oslo, conditions for Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank have also deteriorated since then.

Oslo 1 & 2 tbqh compounded the settlers issue because of the one-sided nature of the security arrangements.  They were hailed at the time as precursors to a 2 state solution but the fact is that both Oslo accords failed to deal with the core issues that collectively define the Israeli-Palestinian conflict such as borders, Palestinian refugees, and the status of Jerusalem.

It hasn't created a single Palestinian state but the Gaza Strip and multiple disconnected Palestinian settlements where access is controlled by 600 plus Israeli Defence Force checkpoints.

Edited October 20, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[Cosmic Joe]

8 minutes ago, DannyBlue said:

Of course, it's not. When people said Scotland played France, nobody expected the entire population of both countries to be on the pitch. It's just a convenient shorthand of language that in context makes sense. Conversation would become unnecessarily tedious if people had to constantly qualify every word they use.

Agree up to a point. 

However:

English hooligan enthusiasts referring to, for example:

Millwall at Leeds, when they are not meaning the guys on the park, does my napper in. 

[Guest DannyBlue]

1 minute ago, Cosmic Joe said:

Agree up to a point. 

However:

English hooligan enthusiasts referring to, for example:

Millwall at Leeds, when they are not meaning the guys on the park, does my napper in. 

Well, there will inevitably be times when it isn't clear but it can be clarified without people jumping to the worst possible interpretation.

[Thane of Cawdor]

32 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

Quite a funny clip. Biden from earlier this year and from back in 1986 saying the same thing both times.

Then I found this to be a decent explanation of why he might say it: https://theconversation.com/biden-says-the-u-s-would-have-to-invent-an-israel-if-it-didnt-exist-why-210172

Nation states pursue national interests and those interests don't always square up neatly with ethical concerns. Everyone knows that but attempts are made to obfuscate it sometimes.

 

I actually bought the book from which the excerpt below is taken, but can't find it now. I can't remember what comprised the "loose coalition" but it might have been an unholy alliance of the military-industrial complex, the Anti-Defamation League and Christian nutters.

The Israel Lobby," by John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen M. Walt of Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government, was one of the most controversial articles in recent memory.

Originally published in the London Review of Books in March 2006, it provoked both howls of outrage and cheers of gratitude for challenging what had been a taboo issue in America: the impact of the Israel lobby on U.S. foreign policy.

Now in a work of major importance, Mearsheimer and Walt deepen and expand their argument and confront recent developments in Lebanon and Iran. They describe the remarkable level of material and diplomatic support that the United States provides to Israel and argues that this support cannot be fully explained on either strategic or moral grounds. This exceptional relationship is due largely to the political influence of a loose coalition of individuals and organizations that actively work to shape U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction.

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

That’s an incredibly stupid take on the subject.  Because the 29.4% of registered voters who didn’t vote and the 27.8% of the population who didn’t register to vote are not guilt free, they’re culpable.

This is one of these situations where if you’re not part of the solution then you are definitely part of the problem.

 

I'm simply pointing out that it ISN'T that simple. Some of those not voting couldn't, for whatever reason...some of those who voted had their votes discarded because they didn't reach the 3.5% level...etc, etc. It's an incredibly stupid take that a majority of the people of Israel are in support of this because the ACTUAL number of voters that elected this government is LESS than 25% of the total population.

[Trogdor]

4 minutes ago, TxRover said:

I'm simply pointing out that it ISN'T that simple. Some of those not voting couldn't, for whatever reason...some of those who voted had their votes discarded because they didn't reach the 3.5% level...etc, etc. It's an incredibly stupid take that a majority of the people of Israel are in support of this because the ACTUAL number of voters that elected this government is LESS than 25% of the total population.

Aye but let's condemn all the Israelis - they are all complicit in the subjugation of the Palestinians. There are numerous people on this thread who actually believe that.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Trogdor

[BFTD]

2 hours ago, TxRover said:

48% of voting Israeli’s, no? So 48% of the 70.6% of registered voters, and the registered voters are 72.2% of the population….so you can correctly say that 33.88% of voters or roughly 24.5% of residents of Israel voted for the current Right-wing government.

OT, but any excuse to mention my favourite statistic from when the press announced a huge surge for Farage's party in the European Parliament, but didn't mention that they had around 10% of the eligible vote. Big, big numbers.

Anyway, does all this chat mean that we have to stop blaming Tory voters for the actions of their government now?  

[welshbairn]

15 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

Aye but let's condemn all the Israelis they are all complicit in the subjugation of the Palestinians. There are numerous people on this thread who actually believe that.

You can hold a country along with its institutions to account for its actions without blaming every individual citizen. 

[Empty It]

Blaming Israeli citizens for Netanyahu is a ridiculous take, the majority of the UK voted Tory but I certainly wouldn't take any responsibility for anything those scumbags do.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

15 minutes ago, Empty It said:

Blaming Israeli citizens for Netanyahu is a ridiculous take, the majority of the UK voted Tory but I certainly wouldn't take any responsibility for anything those scumbags do.

It wasn't even a majority - 43.6% share of those who voted.

[MazzyStar]

23 minutes ago, Empty It said:

Blaming Israeli citizens for Netanyahu is a ridiculous take, the majority of the UK voted Tory but I certainly wouldn't take any responsibility for anything those scumbags do.

The difference being the current Tory government aren’t a bunch of genocidal maniacs (yet) explicitly stating their intentions to wipe out an entire population that they and every previous government before them have subjugated. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

10 minutes ago, MazzyStar said:

The difference being the current Tory government aren’t a bunch of genocidal maniacs (yet) explicitly stating their intentions to wipe out an entire population that they and every previous government before them have subjugated. 

I like the way you put (yet).

[Thane of Cawdor]

BBC journalist telling the nation that two hostages are being released for humanitarian reasons. Subtitles telling us they are being released for monetary reasons.

[Highlandmagar]

Apparently Israel have threatened to bomb a hospital in Gaza City and to get people out. There are 400 patients who cannot be moved and 12,000 people sheltering in it????

Edited October 20, 2023 by Highlandmagar